Have been laying around rewatching some old WWE and ECW stuff. It's amazing to me how time and hindsight can change your perception and outlooks on certain matches. It got me thinking about a QOTD...
Are there specific matches that don't hold up well over time for you? If so, why? Conversely, are there older matches you've subsequently watched and said "wow, that's alot better then I remembered."
Are there specific matches that don't hold up well over time for you? If so, why? Conversely, are there older matches you've subsequently watched and said "wow, that's alot better then I remembered."
The 1 that jumped to mind was the rock/mankind I quit RR match. Watched it like 2 weeks ago and there is nothing really enjoyable about it anymore. I enjoyed it when I watched the ppv but maybe it's bc i was just into the feud. The actual match in a vacuum today really wasn't good.
ReplyDeleteThe hindsight of Beyond the Mat and increased awareness of concussions has really killed that match.
ReplyDeleteYup. That definitely didn't help it. I tried putting that aside when I watched the match but it's tough to see someone get their brains bashed in repeatedly.
ReplyDeleteConversely I've probably watched punk/Cena MITB twice since it originally aired and I like it more snd more upon every repeat viewing. Maybe because I know it's the start of Punk being a made man and the start of a good rivalry between the 2
ReplyDeleteThe 2 Ric Flair-Ronnie Garvin matches from 1987 are a lot better than I remembered. They beat the pure hell out of each other.
ReplyDeleteECW as a whole doesn't hold up for me. The lack of psychology ruins it for me. With that said, I can watch the Awesome-Tanaka series every day.
I used to think Shawn vs. Bret Iron Man was great but watching it today it's a tough watch and just not all that good. A lot of the hardcore matches in the 90's could also go here.
ReplyDeleteOn the other side of that, I've grown to appreciate Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels from WrestleMania XIX. It's got a basic but timeless story, great work throughout, and just great execution.
Hogan/Andre
ReplyDeleteHogan/Rock
Warrior/Rude
HBK/Undertaker matches (especially Hell in a Cell)
Bret wasn't selling that match. Look at the way he sold the superkick at the end.
ReplyDeleteI didn't love Shawn-Cena @ WM23 when I watched it live, but it's really grown on me.
ReplyDeletesame with bret austin wm 13. I could watch it on a continuous loop, and their SS match is fucking awesome as well. 2 5 star matches, not even michaels taker did that. HIAC ending knocked off a qtr star, WM 25 def 5 stars, wm 26 4 1/2 tops.
ReplyDeleteKane/Undertaker from WrestleMania XIV does not hold up well at all. I'm not sure if it's because I've seen them fight a million times since then, but I used to think that match was ***+. Not sure what I was thinking about then because there's lots of slow brawling and the only thing that saves part of it is the storyline and the Undertaker taking a crazy bump through the Spanish announce table.
ReplyDeleteon second thought steamboat flair had 3 straight 5 stars in 89 that still hold up great, but bret austin is still my fav match.
ReplyDeleteThe HBK-Razor ladder match from WM X. While it's still a great match from a historical perspective, subsequent ladder matches have outdone it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, watching ECW today bores me. That style of wrestling does not age well.
ECW un general, I guess. It seemed so innovative and violent at the time, now it just seems stupid.
ReplyDeleteThe first matches you mentioned got better or worse with time?
ReplyDeleteHonestly? I would not be mad if they gave Flair and Steamboat 10-15 minutes at Wrestlemania...even if they were part of a tag team.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I edited it.
ReplyDeleteI want to see the 10 man from RAW with the Radicalz again. I haven't seen it in forever, and I want to know if it's as mind blowingly awesome as I remember it.
ReplyDeleteTo me, a lot of the big Shawn Michaels matches from 2003 have either aged really well or have just gotten better since I've recalibrated expectations. A lot of us were a little iffy on him getting some victories if he was just a "part-timer", and some of us--definitely myself included--kept on waiting for 1996-97 HBK to burst through those curtains. I think it took me a while to get used to his altered style, which relied a lot more on psychology and spurts of athleticism rather than balls-to-the-wall, human pinball-like action.
ReplyDeleteBut, if you have time when you get the WWE Network, check out Shawn vs...
-Jericho WM 19 - an initial case of hesitance on the outcome at the time, but in retrospect an awesome story from start to finish
-Flair, Badd Blood '03 - a case of unrealistic expectations and fans expecting the universe to implode due to artistic greatness... in reality, still a fine 3.5 star match
-Orton (whatever the September PPV was called) - another 3.75 - 4 star match that gets overlooked
-the 5 man team on Survivor Series - it's been talked about enough around these parts
-Batista, Armageddon - watch HBK walk a still-green-but-learning Batista through a 3.5 star match
Totally agree on Shawn vs. Orton from 2003. I also remember Shawn having a good match against Chris Masters on a PPV in 2005 too.
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention that one. I'm the same way. First time I saw it I thought "that was pretty good" and then didn't watch it for 3 or 4 years after that. Watched it again more recently and it blew my mind how much I enjoyed it. I saw that Scott gave it ****3/4 and I agree with him. It's special.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree. I bought the first unreleased blu ray and couldn't get throught it. Very different for it's time doesn't age well at all.
ReplyDeleteCompletely agree. Even his initial HHH return matches I didn't enjoy as much as I should have at the time. They're really really good.
ReplyDeleteI think I'm about the only person left in the world who enjoys Taker-Kane from WM XIV. I think it's their best match. It is a little slow but that never bothered me. The story coming in was there and JR does one of his best jobs on commentary talking about Undertaker's rope-a-dope strategy. People should watch that match just for JR.
ReplyDeleteThat match will always go down for me as having the best Raw crowd of all time. Absolute nuclear heat.
ReplyDeleteid be down for that.
ReplyDeleteI used to think their Last Man Standing match at the '04 Rumble was great but it really isn't much.
ReplyDeleteThe story of that match and the story of HBK / Taker At WM 25 are both similar, and both good. Shawn wrestles a near-perfect match, but gets caught by making one mistake.
ReplyDeleteI see a lot of people complain about the ending of their Hell in a Cell. I've got absolutely no problem with the finish, and in fact, think it works in the context of the match, the stories of the two guys coming in and where the two would go in the coming months. It's a classic debut and I don't think it ruins the match.
ReplyDeleteI tried watching it a few months ago amd couldn't get through it. The build I got into amd they did a good job of making a young non smart fan officerfarva think Kane could win but the match was really bad.
ReplyDeleteAustin vs Rock at WM 15 got a TON better for me when I re watched over the Xmas break. What it took was losing the "it's not as good as WM X7" and just appreciating it as its own, fun entity.
ReplyDeletebut knowing the shit of a match that taker n kane had at 14 still sours me. they could have debuted kane another way. that match was set up for michaels to get his head kicked in and lose cleanly, than he'd get the win back at royal rumble anyway.
ReplyDeleteException: HBK vs. HHH - Bad Blood 2004. A 45 minutes Hell in a Cell "circle jerk" as Scott called it. And I would agree.
ReplyDeleteRaven matches in ECW do not age well at all
ReplyDeletecant go wrong with punk v cena... my moty for 1013 was their match on raw, Cena has aged very well in the ring, shit his match with bryan was fucking awesome as well.
ReplyDeleteRAW was on before Columbus discovered America?
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I said 2003. The HHH saga had diminishing returns--a great Raw match in 2003, a pretty good match at Royal Rumble 2004, and the atrocity you mentioned at Bad Blood 2004. I don't know why anyone would map out, produce, or watch a 40 minute, 2.5 star match
ReplyDeleteI think we'll get our chance in 40 days or so...
ReplyDeleteI hated the finish to their match at the 2004 Rumble
ReplyDeleteHBK beating taker sets up survivor series which leads to dropping the title at wm. Lol at your discounting a match because a different match six months later wasn't good though.
ReplyDeleteI'm an absurdly massive Shawn fan and I bought the PPV just for that match, only to be disappointed when it was a total bore
ReplyDeleteI was a smart fan and I thought Kane would win to set up a bigger blow-off down the line (we were still a few years away from the streak being a big deal).
ReplyDeleteI would like to see these matches. I've never seen Flair/Garvin in its entirety.
ReplyDeleteI actually consider them to be the only ecw matches worth watching. Matches that revolve around great angles are always going to suffer in hindsight. If you know who's going to win, it takes something away from it.
ReplyDeleteIt IS the longest running episodic, action adventure, weekly program series in the history of mankind!
ReplyDeleteWWE does not have a good track record with Last Man Standing matches over the last 15 years.
ReplyDeletewere talking about matches that werent as good as they once were to you... the ending of hiac knowing the outcome does not get 5 stars from me is what im gettin at bub. jeez ive never interracted with ya but you do troll pretty hard.
ReplyDeleteBAH
ReplyDeleteAgreed. There is nothing good about that match. The last Manding standing match is better, but I haven't seen it in a while to give a rating. But Rock just didn't have it yet.... Sometimes I'm amazed he got as good as he did.
ReplyDeleteTrue. After watching the WWF in order from Hogan winning the tile in 1984 to the first WrestleMania, I have a greater appreciation for the show, which in hindsight,comes off as a souped-up average MSG card
ReplyDeleteThe angles were great though. I never cared for Dreamer but the feud was intense.
Miles Standish vs. Squanto was one hell of a match I was told
ReplyDeleteThere was just no reason to cuff Mick's hands and make it impossible to protect himself from the chair shots, but to "trick" smart fans into buying into the "realism."
ReplyDeleteaw man my bad bro im mad sry and stuff cn u 4give me?
ReplyDeleteI haven't watched that in forever. Remember liking it tho
ReplyDeleteGreat point that only a top 5 guy would have made.
ReplyDeleteIt'll all be ok.
ReplyDeleteSame with me, first time, this is good. Second time, this is awesome!
ReplyDeleteI will not have access to the Network in 40 or so days.
ReplyDeleteThat Bad Blood Hell in a Cell is legitimately one of the worst matches of all time. There have been matches just as bad but those had the decency to end in under 20 minutes. That match just sucked from start to finish and unfortunately it didn't finish for 45 minutes.
ReplyDeleteOrton vs. Triple H at No Mercy might be the only one with a non-screwy finish(it's also one of the best)
ReplyDeleteI kind of liked the Flair HHH one.
ReplyDeleteI always got the feeling that Shawn hurt his knee early in the match, and had to switch to a more mat based/rest hold type match for the following 10/15 minutes. He seemed to limp a bit, looked visibly frustrated, then worked the leg forever. I liked their RAW match a lot more.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWaEHmLDROI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
ReplyDeleteThis one or another?
Also a clean ending. I hated the WMX7 ending. Ruined the whole match.
ReplyDeletewas that Survivor Series?
ReplyDeleteThank you, Top 5'er.
ReplyDeleteTaker/Shamrock had a 20 minute MMA-Style match at Backlash 1999, the crowd totally turned on it. But keep in mind that this was in the heart of the Attitude Era, and they had been conditioned to expect:
ReplyDelete-Entrance music
-Catch phrase
-2 minute match
-Run In
-Next match/entrance music
-Next Catch phrase.
Had this match happened just 5 years later, I think the crowd would have loved it, and it would be remembered much better.
The ending to X-7 ties the whole story together
ReplyDeleteI actually LOVED the HHH/Flair cage match for the IC title. It's one of Flair's last great matches.
ReplyDeleteDespite the fact I am going to get flamed for saying this, Bret is probably the most overrated wrestler ever. There, I said it.
ReplyDeleteHe couldnt cut a promo and he left the WWF and they became more popular so he wasnt irreplacable. He was good in the ring but besides that, why does he always get such lofty praise?
Ah right, this "notion" where Garvin was apparently an idiot for accepting the World title, just because he would eventually lose it back... Or something... That one still makes me laugh.
ReplyDeleteI lean the opposite way - I didn't appreciate how much better Raven was at garbage wrestling than the others. He didn't do as many dumb stunts, actually preferring to work. He has such control of the audience compared to stuntmen like the Sandman.
ReplyDeleteThat dreamer/raven feud was so odd to me. I was really into the feud, one of the reasons I kept watching ecw, but the payoff matches always left me a little underwhelmed. Dreamer just wasn't quite good enough in the ring to get "there".
ReplyDeleteI watched the Hennig-Bockwinkel one-hour draw when it happened. Lil' Biscuit was bored to tears. Older Lil' Biscuit loves that match.
ReplyDeleteI believe Raven was the only ECW champ that defended against people outside of ECW. He had a decent match against Dr. Death Steve Williams.
ReplyDeletehttp://youtu.be/5Kqk1qcKpEM
Heyman always struggled with ending feuds
ReplyDeleteBryan vs. Cena at SummerSlam was a bit overrated too. I would give that about ***3/4 today.
ReplyDeleteI loved his brawl with Gordy.
ReplyDeleteIt's not their style. Those matches rely on good old Southern brawling. WWE bullrope matches are garbage for the same reason, just as 99% of one hour Southern matches would suck beyond belief.
ReplyDeleteBy 1994, he could cut a promo. He knew how to build or encapsulate the drama of the match in his interviews. By 1997, he was one of the best talkers in THIS BUSINESS. Who else could be the biggest face and biggest heel on alternating weeks throughout an entire summer?
ReplyDeleteAnd he wasn't just good in the ring--he was beyond great. People can talk about his 5 moves of doom all they want, but he knew how to tell extremely different stories in the ring AND do it with the same person. His matches with Diesel at Royal Rumble 95 and Survivor Series 95 are almost completely different but are still captivating classics (BS ending to RR aside). His matches with Austin at Survivor Series 96 and WM 13 are also completely different but both arguably 5 stars. He's basically our Shakespeare in the ring.
In my mind, he and Shawn will always be 1a and 1b and depending on taste or the time of the day, you can switch their positions at the top.
This was the first PPV I ever bought.
ReplyDeleteBy the time he developed a style that could compete he was outdated. He didn't want to change to fit the attitude era.
ReplyDeleteI did the JBL/Eddie bullrope match
ReplyDeleteYeah, new styles are usually hit or miss with a crowd
ReplyDeleteI go back and forth on him. Objectively I know he was a great worker but i never really ENJOYED his work for some reason outside hos Austin stuff. I can't completely agree tho because the work he did with the hart foundation/Canadian American Austin feud was really really good I thought.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the 05 one.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that about him. Like how he made sure each of his King of the Ring matches were different from each other
ReplyDeleteNever seen it yet, but I'll take your word for it.
ReplyDeleteBut that is just 3 years of the 14 he spent in the WWF. Sure, he did some great things but is he an all-time great in the history of wrestling? I say no. Very good wrestler yes, but he did not spend enough time at the top of the card due to the lack of other skills besides the in-ring ability.
ReplyDeleteI just compared Hart to Shakespeare earlier. Maybe he really is becoming the Shakespeare of wrestling--objectively great but no one wants to read/watch. I'm on a Hitman kick right now, though. Watched pieces of his last Blu Ray set just a couple hours ago.
ReplyDeleteWas his WM match with HBK his vey last good one?
ReplyDeleteI kind of like the idea that Kane interfering in both matches led to Taker losing to Shawn. Yet, with no interference, Taker was able to take down Shawn.
ReplyDeleteThat's what happens when we are retrained to accept pure wrestling again instead of senseless violence.
ReplyDeleteA VERY good match that aged well was Curt Hennig/Jerry Lawler for the AWA title.
ReplyDeletehttp://youtu.be/zjp8f4xNp9Q
It made sense in the context,only a monster like Undertaker could be stopped with another one.
ReplyDeleteYes. Anything after that was terrible.
ReplyDeleteA match that probably no one will know, Matt Cross vs Johnny Gargano from 2010 is one that gets better for me.
ReplyDeleteBeing good in the ring (which is a ridiculous understatement) is a pretty big piece of the puzzle. He wasn't a great promo until '97, but he wasn't terrible either. He played his role (average-sized person who succeeds on skill) very well IMO.
ReplyDeleteAll-time greats dont take 13 years in the top company to cut a good promo though. At his peak in 1997, the WWF got rid of him and they overtook their competition for the top spot in the Monday Night Wars. That speaks for itself
ReplyDeleteYeah, those three years he was a bankable talker. He vacillated between slightly below and slightly above average on the mic in the previous five years or so. Still, in roughly 1988-1997, you could count on him to be one of the best matches on the card. He did his talking in the ring. King of the Ring 1993; Wrestlemania 8; Wrestlemania 10; Summerslam 92; and on and on. Tremendously told stories.
ReplyDeleteFor many of his matches, however, you have to be in the right frame of mind while watching. You can't watch an epic Bret match on a lazy Saturday afternoon (when you'd rather be watching sports or a Will Ferrell movie) any more than you can watch The Godfather on a whim. In some ways, he can feel boring no matter how much you know about wrestling and how much you appreciate good wrestling.
Hogan and Andre, C- at best.
ReplyDeleteI enjoy his matches, dont get me wrong, but i dont think of him as an ATG. I am not counting his WCW run into that either because they didnt have a clue how to use him
ReplyDeleteI appreciate his ring work. Bret vs. Austin is my favorite Mania match ever and his tag stuff from the mid 80's was awesome
ReplyDeleteWell if you want to be honest about it, I thought a lot of his matches were repetitive. He needed great dance partners like Austin or Michaels.
ReplyDeleteSome of them were repetitive and he also called out other wrestlers for doing the same thing, which was funny
ReplyDeleteThe hour match with Cena was great too.
ReplyDeleteWhy does he get praise? Because he's the best there is, the best there was, and the best that ever will be.
ReplyDeleteIn all seriousness, it's kind of like my thing with CM Punk, great on the mic, great in the ring, but is he really that one of the greatest wrestlers ever?
Are you really taking the position that if Bret had stayed, the WWF doesn't overtake WCW? Might wanna think on that a bit.
ReplyDeleteHad Bret stayed, I believe the plan was for him to put Austin over at Wrestlemania. So Austin gets the strap at the exact same time as he did in real life. And Austin had already stunned Vince in September '97, which would've led to Austin/McMahon anyway.
He may not be on the Mount Rushmore of wrestling, but he's in that second tier IMO. Third tier at the lowest.
He was one of the absolute best ever in the ring and learned how to deliver a really good promo in his later career.
ReplyDeleteHe was my hero as a kid, and he's definitely top 3 or 5 GOAT as far as I'm concerned. I can freely admit that he is not A+ though.
I don't expect anyone to agree but I watched the 4 way from WM 16 and I really liked it. There was enough peripheral shit with the McMahons to give it some added entertainment value, Foleys return role was fun and Rock/HHH essentially got 20 minutes to work a good 1-1 match. Big shows role felt really flat but he was gone pretty quickly. I once everyone was disappointed they didn't go hhh/Rock in a 1-1 but that not withstanding the 4 way itself is pretty good
ReplyDeleteSavage-Steamboat. I want to love it more than I actually do. It comes off as too choreographed for me.
ReplyDeleteThe concept kinda sucks in general.
ReplyDeleteI find it great, just not as the greatest Wrestling match of all time.
ReplyDeleteI quit is worse.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of the stuff on the Saturday Night's Main Event DVD collection. I hadn't seen most of it since I was a kid, so revisiting it amazed just how compelling that stuff still was after 20+ years. Given how the majority of that collection is pure gold, you can take your pick.
ReplyDeleteExcept its rebirth a few years ago, when DX was feuding with the McMahons. It didn't have that same Big Moment feeling that the old SNME had.
I've never, especially as a kid, been as workrate crazy in what I enjoy in a match as a lot of people online are, but that was my first favourite match ever.
ReplyDeleteOh wow. See him take on 3 different dance partners in KOTR 93 and build to three different climaxes. See him take on Diesel in KOTR 94, RR 95, and SurSer 95 in three different matches with three different face-heel dynamics and three different ways to getting to 3.5 - 4.25 stars. Similarly, he could take Taker to the same level. Great matches with Bulldog(s), Owen, Perfect, Hakushi, 1-2-3 Kid, Piper, Brainbusters, Demolition, Bam Bam, etc. should also be considered.
ReplyDeleteNo matter who he was feuding with, you could count on Bret having one of the three best matches on the card for nearly 10 years. He was as versatile as they came. Completely disagree with the notion that he "needed great dance partners."
It's very good. Both guys bust their ass. But it leaves me kind of flat. You know, give me Flair-Windham from that period any day of the week.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to look at it now when so much of it has been picked apart by others in the business and mimicked. It's sort of like looking at a classic movie like Casablanca or Citizen Kane. They created what would later be the standout for other filmmakers to work from.
ReplyDeleteSame idea here, I think. It's hard to look at it objectively today without realizing how much of it that guys like Jericho (probably Jericho especially) have taken from it.
That's how I feel about Bret/Bulldog from summerslam. I really want to like it, great atmosphere amd great workrate match, but I just have no emotional attachment to it at all. It's just "meh" for me
ReplyDeleteI may have to rewatch it again, but the fact that it ended in a roll up with no real build kind of turned me off from it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, while I agree with everyone when it comes to Hogan/Andre, I don't think it's meant to be looked at as some kind of amazing technical showcase. It's mostly just for the energy of the match itself, which was largely due to some incredibly smart booking by WWF at the time.
ReplyDeleteThat is a good point.
ReplyDeleteFor me, something like Razor-Shawn ladder I fits in that boat too, except I'm still awed watching that match, 20 viewings later. I think that one's actually become underrated (the way that people put it in that category of 'groundbreaking for the time', but dismiss it as not holding up that well)
ReplyDeleteThat's sort of what I thought when I saw people listing that, like you EVER thought that was a great match?
ReplyDeleteIt was epic, and the climax of a good story, but a good match?
I think it suffers from the fact that nobody wants to put in a WM 15 or WM 16 dvd on because both shows are overbooked messes. Standing alone, though, you're right--it's a damn good match.
ReplyDeleteHBK wrote in his book that Nash HAS to do different things in matches. If this is true then Nash is given credit for that.
ReplyDeleteBulldog and Owen are a given. 1-2-3 Kid is supposed to be the measuring stick and you should not have a bad with him.
Brainbusters? Come ON. It's Arn and Tully. What other great dance partners do you need? And. Bam Bam was always an underrated big man.
Piper and Demo I'm 50/50 on.
I thought the match was pretty good. It didn't really need the 4 way aspect, but I think it added to the overall feel.
ReplyDeleteNot in the slightest.
ReplyDeleteVince has nearly ruined that match for me by yelling "UNBELIEVABLE!!" like 18 times. I mean I get it's the company's catch phrase, but don't over do it!
ReplyDeleteI'm like that about a lot of Bret matches actually. Like, I admire how smooth he is in his craft, but I don't lose myself in it...1997 excluded.
ReplyDeleteUntil the Monday Night Wars, I think most wrestlers were repetitive. The key was changing it up come PPV/big show time, which is what Bret did so well.
ReplyDeleteBack then, you were mostly wrestling squash matches or the same opponent for weeks on the house show circuit. There's only so many different matches you can have in those situations. And really, there's no reason to NOT be repetitive in those situations. Once they started having star vs. star matches every week, that's when the game changed.
From a technical aspect, sure. For emotional impact, it still holds up as A+ to me.
ReplyDeleteAlso also (sorry, triple post; been watching movies all night). I'm very likely going to get shit for this:
ReplyDeleteI don't think Rock is all that great in the ring in general. He's got the mic skills and incredibly charisma and presence that carries well into the ring, but as far as being in an actual match? Eh. He's had some good matches with some guys, but I feel like he's not one of those guys in the business that's good enough to carry anyone through a match, you know?
Pretty much everything in 1995 is "wow, that's alot better than I remembered" category. Also, non cruiserweight WCW matches during the Monday Night War era.
ReplyDeleteDo not. Watch it first. I fucking love the match, but I'm an admitted Bryan Mark.
ReplyDeleteHell, even Diesel/Mabel was more watchable than I remembered, and the crowd actually popped huge for the win. Wasn't the best choice for the main even of your 2nd biggest show of the year, but not as bad as most remember.
ReplyDeleteThe emotion saves it.
ReplyDeleteNo, I am pointing out how they didnt need him to overtake WCW, the company he went too.
ReplyDeleteI actually like Bret-Shawn's ladder match more than Razor-Shawn.
ReplyDeleteNever cared for him as an announcer. I like my lead announce guy to know holds and play it fairly straight...though Gorilla was a fav of mine too, and he wasn't exactly Gordon Solie.
ReplyDeleteThe match that entertains me in a way I didn't expect was Hogan/HBK at whatever year SS. To me, it was the biggest FU to Hogan. Michaels made him look like a chump by overselling for him. It's a goddamned thing of beauty.
ReplyDeleteI think Rock was one of those guys who carried his side of things so he didn't need to be carried, but conversely he wasn't going to carry his opponent either. IMO where he excelled was the intensity he exuded and crispness of his moves. Except that shitty Sharpshooter.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Exactly! It's slow and ponderous. Let's face it. Andre was great for what he was: gigantic, but not exactly amazing in the ring. He didn't need to be. He was Andre the frigging GIANT.
ReplyDeleteIt's like putting a REALLY tall guy on the basketball team just because he was tall. Yeah, he's terrible as hell, but he's TALL!
And Hogan's sort of like Rock where he gets by on ring presence and charisma alone half the time. Great timing in terms of when to get the crowd behind him, but as far as a pure wrestler? Nuh uh.
Windham in general has grown on me over the years. That dude was SMOOTH!
ReplyDeleteWas that the first one that didn't air on TV?
ReplyDeleteReasonable statement and assessment from you both. On the whole, he could go just fine. Until recently. Now, he apparently can't wrestling without injuring himself.
ReplyDeleteI dont think he is a jabroni or anything and would probably give him top 30 status for all time wrestlers but I dont think he is the greatest ever like some do.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I never loved a Bret-Shawn match. Any of em. Something never clicked w/em for me.
ReplyDeleteI was at that show and I have no memory of anything other than the ladder match.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it ended up on a few Coliseum Video releases like "Most Unusual Matches Ever" from GoodTimes video (which is where I saw it) and I know "Smack 'Em, Whack 'Em" or something.
ReplyDeleteToo bad he let himself go and seemingly didnt give a fuck.
ReplyDeleteI really dug his Lone Wolf character in WCW.
Bret's list of good matches is extremely lengthy and extremely varied. Don't know what else I can say to that.
ReplyDeleteMakes it.
ReplyDeleteMatt Cross had some freakish talent. It's too bad he didn't get more of a spotlight on Tough Enough, especially considering what a waste of air time all the other competitors turned out to be.
ReplyDeleteThat's fair. In terms of carrying ability, he was right in the middle? I agree with that.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm not saying anything he did was sloppy (Sharpshooter excluded). You're right. Everything he did was crisp. I just don't know if he really excelled at anything that his presence and charisma didn't hide.
I don't get the love for Gordon Solie. I respect his career, but he never did anything for me when watching matches. I guess I just prefer my announcers to really get into things and be less passive.
ReplyDeleteThat was a good match, several matches from SS05 were great.
ReplyDeleteI cant stand Solie, honestly. Came off as pretentious and just sounded overly serious all of the time, not showing much emotion, which didnt make the product more exciting if you ask me. Plus, I hated how he pronounced suplex
ReplyDeleteYeah man. He just 'got it'. Heel or face. But man, he fell off a friggin cliff. When he was done, he was fucking done! I heard in a recent Place to Be podcast he had major reconstructive surgery on his knee prior to the Flair debacle in 94.
ReplyDeleteSoup-lay. Why, how do you pronounce it?
ReplyDeleteThey didn't need anyone except Steve Austin. Didn't need Shawn, didn't need Taker, didn't need pre-Game HHH, didn't need The Rock.
ReplyDeleteNow as the years went on, they would need those guys but at the time, it was Austin's world. Everyone else was just living in it.
How every other announcer in US wrestling does
ReplyDeleteMost of the Ultimate Warriors matches that lasted more than 3 minutes... the dude could work!
ReplyDeleteYeah, maybe it's because they didn't want one of Punks friends running around, but they left a lot of money on the table by not hiring him.
ReplyDeleteI know, just funnin at the guy's expense.
ReplyDeleteTop 30 sounds about right to me.
ReplyDeleteProvided someone held his hand along the way, yeah. Rude apparently was a godsend for him because he REALLY taught Warrior how to work. And the big Hogan match (which still holds up, in my opinion) was apparently booked very carefully by Patterson to the point that every single punch was planned ahead. Bit exaggeration there, but you get the point.
ReplyDeleteSolie looked miserable all of the time too.
ReplyDeleteEver see that Will Ferrel basketball movie? Solie reminded me of the announcer from that. Like, he appeared to have his shit together, but was a derelict chain-smoking drunk like everyone around him.
ReplyDeleteIt's not really one match, but a collection of matches from SummerSlam '89 always entertain me and I'm always struck by how good they are: the Rude-Warrior IC title match, the Brainbusters-Hart Foundation match, and the Rougeaus/Martel-Rockers/Santana six man tag. A solid hour of entertaining wrestling right there.
ReplyDeleteHis voice was very monotone.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he did, either. His presence and charisma were just so overwhelmingly great that he could get away with pretty much anything (Exhibit A: "strudel"). And one thing he could do that a lot of other good talkers couldn't: his charisma carried over into the ring. Your eyes are on him no matter what.
ReplyDeleteI thought he married some rich chick and no longer needed to work?
ReplyDeletei thought he was pretty bad and never got the love for him. He came off like a complete prick at the end of his career too. Jim Ross was 20x the announcer Solie was
ReplyDeleteThe most interesting one to me is Brock/Angle WM19. I watched it tonight and talked about it with Petuka in another thread and it made me think of this question.
ReplyDeleteIt's REALLY REALLY fucking good. Outside of the botched final 30 seconds? It easily could have hit 5 stars. It's so to hard to grade because the botched SSP is such a black eye but the other 98% of the match was fantastic. Much better then I remembered it.
With Warrior, nothing is exaggerated.
ReplyDeleteBah, remembered another one: Rockers vs. Orient Express from one of the early Royal Rumbles. Holy SHIT could the Express work a match. If that exact same match were performed today, the crowd would blow the roof off.
ReplyDeleteI think you are believing the internet propaganda, go back and watch matches against guys like Dino Bravo and he could GO, he was explosive and by 1989 his timing was much much better (he was botcharooni in 1988). I'm sure Rude made him a better performer but he wasn't a completely useless bag of muscles like everyone else claims him too be. I dare you even too watch Warrior/Papa Shango from 1992 and it's ENTERTAINING and not badly worked at all.. considering Charles Wright was a pretty terrible worker I'd say they did a great job together.
ReplyDeleteI don't care how unprofessional it was, it was fucking awesome. Kudos to Shawn.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Rude practically carried Warrior to the best match of his career at SummerSlam '89 (as I mentioned above). I remember being blown away by the quality of that match when I first saw it since I wasn't a big fan of their WrestleMania V encounter. Of course, Ventura ripping on the Warrior the whole match is pretty funny too and enhances the match quality.
ReplyDeleteThey worked against them in the AWA when they were Badd Company a lot too, which helped. That match was the tits though
ReplyDeleteIn the record books, it still says Hogan beat Shawn...
ReplyDeleteI was once a pretty intense Lynn/Van Dam mark. There was a long period of time when I would have put their first match in my all-time top five. I've turned on the finish pretty hard though. It really was pretty ludicrous, since when does the referee reward the title to the challenger based on an arbitrary judgement? The whole thing was always, "You have to beat the champ." I know it was just a ruse to build up Lynn and make him look ballsy for demanding the overtime, but it's so illogical that it taints the match now. There are still many amazing spots in that match, but it just doesn't feel as coherent when I watch it now. And the rest of their encounters suffered for repeating the same long chain sequences making it all look too choreographed.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Sting/Flair from the first Clash of the Champions is a bit of a drag now. It's like a 15 minute match looped 3 times. It's become more apparent that Sting didn't have 45 minutes of material and the Flair formula can only do so much.
I guess in both matches they were awesome at the time because each one MADE a new challenger. They made up with the enthusiasm they generated what they lacked in psychology or technical proficiency. I can appreciate them in historical terms but it's hard to not knock a couple points off their scores now that I'm watching them in a more objective context.
When Hogan was going to lose a match you could tell because he didn't sell. He's an unprofessional prick as well.
ReplyDeleteThat's Rumble '91. One of the best openers the company has ever had.
ReplyDeleteI may have to watch it again, but I think that Hogan vs Vince gets better every time.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it. Ventura ripping on everyone was gold at any time. I hated it as a kid, but looking back, I LOVE how he ripped on Hogan for all the dirty tricks and cheap shit he did.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Warrior bust out two different variations of the powerslam that match?
ReplyDeleteWhat is Ventura's finest hour? The Warrior-Rude match is great, but his commentary with Monsoon during the Hogan-Savage match is GOLD. I mean they completely rip on each other with their partisanship and Monsoon makes subtle digs about Savage abusing Elizabeth backstage and telling Ventura that Freddie Blassie sent his career into the toilet.
ReplyDeleteIsn't '89 when Rude/Warrior first got together? It would make sense if he improved from that point.
ReplyDeleteWarrior was entertaining enough, but any match that went over 6-7 minutes that wasn't A) choreographed in advance or B) against someone really good, it was pretty bleh.
We need Hogan vs HHH again, I don't care what physical limitations are involved.
ReplyDeleteI'll throw in Wrestlemania 6: Savage/Sherri vs. Dusty/Sapphire. Screw gold, pure motherfucking platinum.
ReplyDeleteI'd argue Bret/Owen at WM10 was their best and has yet to be beaten. But as you said, "one of" so that's key wording there.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that always gets me angry about the RVD-Lynn series is that LYNN NEVER WON THE TITLE! I mean it was really hard to get behind Lynn when he couldn't beat RVD regardless of how good their matches were.
ReplyDeleteYes, hence the qualifier. I'd put Bret/Owen above it too.
ReplyDeleteThe record book says whatever WWE decides it says. They wiped an entire Wrestlemania match between HHH and Undertaker from their history, dontchaknow.
ReplyDeleteHaha, I forgot about that one. Ventura had me in stitches before the bell even started with "Dusty and Sapphire weigh more than..."
ReplyDeleteShawn-HHH at SS '02 dosen't hold up for me at all. I know Scott has largely disowned his original review of it, but frankly I think he got it right the first time.
ReplyDeleteCena-HHH at WM 22 has grown on me over the last few years.
Hogan was probably the best at knowing how to work to the crowd. He knew when to sell, and when to make the comeback better than any guy out there.
ReplyDeleteHis work in Japan proved he was a capable worker but he didnt need to work like that in the US...