Happy New Year, Little Doomers. It's January, and that brings us to our monthly look at pay-per-view matches that took place during this month. I only look at the big two, WWF/E and WCW. If you have favorites from TNA, ROH, ECW or any other company, feel free to give them some love here.
For WWF/E, PPV shows have included Royal Rumble (of course), with the pay-per-view version beginning in 1989 running through today. They also had New Year's Revolution from 2005-2007. For NWA/WCW, they ran a Bunkhouse Stampede show in 1988, Souled Out from 1997-2000, and then Sin in 2001, before their untimely demise. They have been many contenders from these shows, but I have studiously whittled it down to five. But this time, I have decided to include an Honorable Mention section, to show that it was very difficult to decide on just 5. Let's do this!
First, the Honorable Mention Section:
1. Chris Jericho vs. Chris Benoit - Ladder Match - WWF Intercontinental Championship - Royal Rumble - January 21, 2001.
2. Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle - WWE Championship - Royal Rumble - January 19, 2003.
3. Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 29, 2012.
4. The Rock vs. Chris Jericho - WWF Undisputed Championship - Royal Rumble - January 20, 2002.
5. Jushin Liger vs. Ultimo Dragon - IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship - WCW/New Japan Supershow - January 4, 1993.
Now to the A+ GOAT Top 5 match list. Remember, completely subjective on my part, and meant to spark conversation.
5. Chris Benoit vs. Raven - WCW/NWO Souled Out - January 24, 1998.
I could easily have plugged in Benoit/Angle here, but I feel that this match does not get the love it deserves. It's not a long match, and I think if it had more time, it would be remembered as a classic. It's probably Raven's best match, even better than the ("gasp! He's not going there!") dog collar match in ECW. But as for Benoit, he was just getting started, as evidenced by the fact that he is all over this list.
4. 2010 Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 31, 2010.
Let's start by saying that CM Punk OWNS the first 1/3 of this match. He was in his Straight Edge Savior phase and was cutting promos while eliminating guys. Until you-know-who shows up. This Rumble had great pacing, the storyline of Shawn Michaels needing the win to face Undertaker, and the surprise return of Edge at the end. I call it a ***** Rumble.
3. 2004 Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 25, 2004.
Let's face it. WWE has gone through painstaking hoops to eliminate Chris Benoit from their history. In my opinion, that is a shame, because he was one of the best in-ring performers of our time. Without dwelling on WHY he is wiped from memory, we should remember the many hours of entertainment he brought to our eyes. This match is probably his crowning achievement, even more so than the WMXX moment.
2. 1992 Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 19, 1992.
The first truly great Rumble match. The WWF Championship was up for grabs, so you had plenty of star power with Hogan, Flair, Savage, DiBiase, Piper, Roberts, Undertaker. But the big deal in this one was Flair with an early draw, and lasting to the very end, which had not been done prior to this. Those that had not been exposed to his NWA days would find out, with this match, that he was "the man".
1. Cactus Jack vs Triple H - Street Fight - WWF Championship - Royal Rumble - January 23, 2000.
Triple H vs Cactus Jack (Royal Rumble 2000... by puropwgwwestuff
I could not, in good conscience, put a Rumble match over a singles match in the #1 slot. Also, when you consider historical perspective, this makes more sense. This kicked off Triple H's awesome 2000 run of great PPV matches. This is one of those matches that builds slowly, and then comes to a boil, before finally exploding our eyeballs. I'm calling it the greatest January PPV match of all time.
There you have it. Any controversy here? Too many Rumbles? Too much WWF/E? Remember, WCW didn't run a regular January PPV until 1997, four years before their closing. I welcome your opinions, and as I mentioned, feel free to give love to your favorites.
See you in February with the next list.
For WWF/E, PPV shows have included Royal Rumble (of course), with the pay-per-view version beginning in 1989 running through today. They also had New Year's Revolution from 2005-2007. For NWA/WCW, they ran a Bunkhouse Stampede show in 1988, Souled Out from 1997-2000, and then Sin in 2001, before their untimely demise. They have been many contenders from these shows, but I have studiously whittled it down to five. But this time, I have decided to include an Honorable Mention section, to show that it was very difficult to decide on just 5. Let's do this!
First, the Honorable Mention Section:
1. Chris Jericho vs. Chris Benoit - Ladder Match - WWF Intercontinental Championship - Royal Rumble - January 21, 2001.
2. Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle - WWE Championship - Royal Rumble - January 19, 2003.
3. Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 29, 2012.
4. The Rock vs. Chris Jericho - WWF Undisputed Championship - Royal Rumble - January 20, 2002.
5. Jushin Liger vs. Ultimo Dragon - IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship - WCW/New Japan Supershow - January 4, 1993.
Now to the A+ GOAT Top 5 match list. Remember, completely subjective on my part, and meant to spark conversation.
5. Chris Benoit vs. Raven - WCW/NWO Souled Out - January 24, 1998.
I could easily have plugged in Benoit/Angle here, but I feel that this match does not get the love it deserves. It's not a long match, and I think if it had more time, it would be remembered as a classic. It's probably Raven's best match, even better than the ("gasp! He's not going there!") dog collar match in ECW. But as for Benoit, he was just getting started, as evidenced by the fact that he is all over this list.
4. 2010 Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 31, 2010.
Let's start by saying that CM Punk OWNS the first 1/3 of this match. He was in his Straight Edge Savior phase and was cutting promos while eliminating guys. Until you-know-who shows up. This Rumble had great pacing, the storyline of Shawn Michaels needing the win to face Undertaker, and the surprise return of Edge at the end. I call it a ***** Rumble.
3. 2004 Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 25, 2004.
Let's face it. WWE has gone through painstaking hoops to eliminate Chris Benoit from their history. In my opinion, that is a shame, because he was one of the best in-ring performers of our time. Without dwelling on WHY he is wiped from memory, we should remember the many hours of entertainment he brought to our eyes. This match is probably his crowning achievement, even more so than the WMXX moment.
2. 1992 Royal Rumble Match - Royal Rumble - January 19, 1992.
The first truly great Rumble match. The WWF Championship was up for grabs, so you had plenty of star power with Hogan, Flair, Savage, DiBiase, Piper, Roberts, Undertaker. But the big deal in this one was Flair with an early draw, and lasting to the very end, which had not been done prior to this. Those that had not been exposed to his NWA days would find out, with this match, that he was "the man".
1. Cactus Jack vs Triple H - Street Fight - WWF Championship - Royal Rumble - January 23, 2000.
Triple H vs Cactus Jack (Royal Rumble 2000... by puropwgwwestuff
I could not, in good conscience, put a Rumble match over a singles match in the #1 slot. Also, when you consider historical perspective, this makes more sense. This kicked off Triple H's awesome 2000 run of great PPV matches. This is one of those matches that builds slowly, and then comes to a boil, before finally exploding our eyeballs. I'm calling it the greatest January PPV match of all time.
There you have it. Any controversy here? Too many Rumbles? Too much WWF/E? Remember, WCW didn't run a regular January PPV until 1997, four years before their closing. I welcome your opinions, and as I mentioned, feel free to give love to your favorites.
See you in February with the next list.
Benoit/Angle deserves more than an honorable mention. YOUR OPINION IS WRONG!!!
ReplyDeleteFoley/HHH is one of my favorite matches ever so I got no complaints.
ReplyDeleteThreadjack: Uncle Phil died. Reports are that God threw him out of the pearly gates on his ear like Uncle Phil always did to Jazz, he is now residing in Hell...
ReplyDeleteToo soon?
I figured on some opinion on that matter. It was hard to cut it from the top 5. I was trying to give the Benoit-Raven match more exposure.
ReplyDeleteThreadjack: I wonder if the 105k+ that turned out for the hockey game between Detroit and Toronto today is going to cause Vince to overreact and want to book a 100k+ venue to host WrestleMania soon, which would fall on its face like WrestleMania 7?
ReplyDeleteHe'd probably try to book it in Michigan Stadium also.
ReplyDeleteI validate your opinion as fact.
ReplyDeleteIsn't this why we have the persistent rumors of trying to get WrestleMania in Dallas, to get 100K-plus attendance?
ReplyDeleteAnd here are a great collection of videos for me to watch to kick off the year. Excellent!
ReplyDeleteAngle vs. Benoit definitely ranks in my Top 5, along with the 1992 and 2004 Rumbles. Cactus/HHH I strongly agree with, as it's probably my favorite match of all time. Really would be hard for me to pick a 5th.
ReplyDeleteSC REPRESENT!!! (I feel dirty even typing that)
ReplyDeleteI would have included Benoit-Jericho. Great match and they sure as hell found a new way to use the ladder.
ReplyDeleteAll these awesome videos being available makes me wonder how WWE makes any money off Blu-Ray DVD sales
ReplyDeleteGood list, though the 2012 RR is awful
ReplyDeleteGot lost in the YouTube rabbit hole and just re watched Rock/Foley RR 99. Man that hasn't aged well at all
ReplyDeleteI thought that Rumble was better than most others. I thought the Jericho-Sheamus ending was very well done. There were some silly moments, but I enjoyed the running gag of the announcers taking their turns entering the Rumble.
ReplyDeleteAlso, that downvote is not mine. I actually welcome differing opinions.
Why WWE hasn't requested all their videos be pulled escapes me. But I'm all for free stuff.
ReplyDeleteDid Earnest Miller always have Brodus Clay's music? Or is that a dub?
ReplyDeleteI was hoping the announcer thing was going to lead to JR coming out as a regular entrant and eliminating Michael Cole
ReplyDeleteI really don't like that match. I mean, I'm not saying it's bad, it's a great match. But I can't ever see myself watching it again, it's almost like a snuff flick. It's one of those times where it got a little too real.
ReplyDeleteI may be the only one that feels this way, but I thought the 2010 "Rumble" was AWFUL. Tons of "lazy leaning", guys saving one another from elimination, Punk getting cut short, tons of guys being eliminated by the "one-arm toss", and a skeletal Edge returning late in the match for a win that was unnecessary both on its own and for his angle.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by skeletal?
ReplyDeleteThat is The Cat's music, given to Brodus Clay.
ReplyDeleteBecause Black. I get it.
ReplyDeleteWorst January PPV Match: HHH vs Big Poppa Pump?
ReplyDeleteUndertaker vs Yokozuna says hi....
ReplyDeletehttp://royalrumbler.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/edge-2010-royal-rumble.jpg
ReplyDeleteIf he did, it wouldn't even come close to setting a record.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.profightdb.com/cards-with-highest-attendance-pg1.html
He was skinny and out-of-shape? I don't know if I'd take it that far. I did feel like after he came back from the calf or achilles injury in 2010 he didn't look to be in as good a shape as he did in the few years previous.
ReplyDeleteI never felt Edge was much of a main eventer.
ReplyDeleteI agree 1000000% on that one. I thought it was a great match when I watched in live; subsequent viewsing have not been kind. It's downright terrible.
ReplyDeleteThat's what makes it a bad match. You can't stomach those chair shots and Rock did a terrible ob building up the drama between those blows.
ReplyDeleteThat would be a hard bump out for JR to take though.
ReplyDeleteWould have been a HUGE POP though.
"we should remember the many hours of entertainment he brought to our eyes"
ReplyDeleteYeah no.
I read an interesting article on the wwedvdnews website (well, linked from there) about how DVD sales are down (which means people think in general physical media sales are down), but the Blu-Rays sales are way up. Which says to me, people are going to buy the higher quality medium. Which makes me wonder why the WWE has been cancelling it's Best of 2013 Blu-Rays. As opposed to say the Best of WCW stuff; anything from 2013 was shot in HD, and is PERFECT for Blu-Ray. As opposed the WCW stuff that was shot for TV in the 80s and 90s. Why would you buy THAT on Blu-Ray. Well, I mean you get a couple of extra matches. I don't know, I'm ranting.
ReplyDeleteYeah. He loves to say how he outdrew the Superbowl in the same buildling.
ReplyDeleteA downvote here is a compliment.
ReplyDeleteI recall liking the finish. I don't think it's an honorable mention for the top five matches ever to happen in January though.
ReplyDeleteHe was okay but he isnt on the level of what I consider a true main eventer....
ReplyDeleteTo each their own. Personally, I can still enjoy a Benoit match, and not even think about the outside-of-the-ring stuff. I guess I've put it behind me.
ReplyDeleteYes, definitely. Also, Undertaker-Yokozuna casket match.
ReplyDeleteI'm disappointed at how few it's gotten
ReplyDeleteThe Rumble is just slug after slug. It really exposed the lack of roster depth at the time. The final two is good though.
ReplyDelete>In my opinion, that is a shame, because he was one of the best in-ring performers of our time. Without dwelling on WHY he is wiped from memory, we should remember the many hours of entertainment he brought to our eyes.
ReplyDeleteYou get why they erased him right?
I get it, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Placing the man in the ring in a historical manner for some of the greatest matches of all time, in the context of that time, is different than devoting commentary on the man as he is portrayed now. It's not going to ever change, due to the WWE's corporate standing and sponsorships and what not, and not wanting to be associated with that. I get all that.
ReplyDeleteBut you're glorifying a murderer and you're repelling a lot of your paying audience that doesn't want to be reminded of what Benoit did.
ReplyDeleteWWE totally gets is right in the way they deal with Benoit....
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Who cares that he could choreograph a wrestling match?
ReplyDeleteThere is a long-standing precedent of glorifying murderers in various historical films, and biographies, and other forms of media. I am not condoning what the man did, but I can differentiate between the performer in the ring, and the man outside the ring. The majority will probably disagree, and I can understand why the steps WWE took, but there are still some fans that remember what he did as a performer.
ReplyDeleteHow is it glorifying him? He did work for them. Historical tragedies are best exhibited by acknowledging they happened, educating your audience on the circumstances, and then letting the audience/viewer decide on how to interpret the facts. It's like if Americans just whitewashed the slavery period in American history books.
ReplyDeleteShould thet bring him up in telecasts, put him in the HOF, etc., of course not but I don't see why they don't put him on dvd with like a disclosure before his match. That being said, it's their choice and they can do what they want.
Why open up the can of worms of putting him on a random DVD? He deserves to be blacklisted.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there's really no comparison between Benoit and slavery, but sure.
But why should we remember that he was a good wrestler? I mean, who cares?
ReplyDeleteI can watch a Benoit match and not care, but I agree with WWE quietly erasing him from existence. He's not someone you want associated with your product.
Same here. To me, he's on the same level as Orton, a good upper-card guy that was pushed well beyond his talent.
ReplyDeleteThe two actually have a LOT in common, in terms of fan response - several times throughout their careers, the fans would turn on them during a big push, but then start to cheer for them when they weren't pushed as strongly, only to go back to resenting the next big push.
It's like the fans WANT to like them, probably for the characters they depict (sleazy rock-star and cold-blooded psycho), but then remember all of the things they LACK once they do start getting pushed back up the card.
Fair, "skeletal" is an exaggeration, but he was pretty out-of-shape.
ReplyDeleteI can also watch a Benoit match but I still think about what he did just like when I watch an Owen match it always brings me back to the fall...
ReplyDeleteIt was a comparison in that they were both tragedies. I should have extrapolated more but an easier comparison is OJ. Should the NFL pretend like he never played? Erase all his images from game films? Erase all his records from the record books? If you answer yes, we have fundamentally different views on how this stuff should be framed within a historical context, which is cool also.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't even begin to fathom a decision like that. If the Blu-Rays weren't selling well, then of course, but if they really are doing well... well, who knows.
ReplyDeleteThen again, "sales are way up" could mean a few things. It COULD mean that they're making a lot of profit on them, or it could mean that it's not nearly as much of a loss. The way that's worded, it could just mean that the company used to lose a lot of money on them, but now lose a smaller amount. That'd still be up, but it's also still a loss.
They don't erase Benoit from the record books and if they release an anthology show, they keep his matches on there.
ReplyDeleteYou said he deserved to be "blacklisted". I took this as he should be erased from everything
ReplyDeleteYou can still buy The Naked Gun on DVD at Amazon. The box set came out long after OJ Simpson lost a civil case in the death of his ex-wife.
ReplyDeleteHis actions don't change the fact that he played an important part in some really funny movies that are still worth seeing.
Just like how WWE released anthologies that had Benoit in them post-murders
ReplyDeleteThat match was awesome, with a creative ending topped by an even more creative ending.
ReplyDeleteI mean that I like the way WWE does it now where they try to no feature him or mention him wherever possible yet sometimes it is unavoidable
ReplyDeleteThere's also a big difference between being found not guilty and liable.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. I don't completely agree but it's subjective and you have rationale.
ReplyDeleteOJ Simpson was found guilty of a crime. Chris Benoit was not.
ReplyDeleteI guess it comes down to the individual watching the show. Owen Hart, Chris Benoit, the Bret Hart screw job....these were real stories. Personally, I moved past these realities very quickly, and I can watch an Owen match just as easily as a Benoit match, and not have the problem of getting caught up in what happened.
ReplyDeleteOJ Simpson was not found guilty of a crime
ReplyDeleteYes he was. He is doing time right now for armed robbery.
ReplyDeleteOh, I thought you meant the murders. My bad. Poor OJ, all he wanted was his merchandise back
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, why go out of the way to hide the fact that he could choreograph a wrestling match?
ReplyDeleteYou can still buy paintings by Hitler to this day.
You mentioned Hitler. Argument over
ReplyDeleteI win again!
ReplyDeleteOh joy, another thread mentioning Benoit that turns into dozens of posts arguing over whether or not we should be morally obligated to hate everything he ever did. It's been days since we've had one of those...
ReplyDeleteWe haven't had this discussion since last year.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely don't get the hate for the casket match. It was just a stupid fun match, which achieved its goal, getting Taker out of the picture for a few months.
ReplyDeleteI hate this law because you could make the assertion it applies to ANYTHING, Hitler included.
ReplyDeleteGeez, it's a shame Benoit lost his damned mind because he was a beast in the ring. Almost half of these feature him in it.
ReplyDeleteExactly
ReplyDeleteI think that has more to do with the fact that the booking surrounding them has screwed up every time.
ReplyDeletebest example: Randy Orton at the beginning of 2009. monster reactions. if the WWE had done it right they could have easily kept going with it - but instead they screwed it up.
Ten guys couldn't get one guy in the casket. It was retarded.
ReplyDeleteTen guys couldn't get one undead almost zombie who frequently couldn't be hurt into a casket. It makes sense in 1994 WWF logic.
ReplyDeleteDark, but funny. We need to heal with jokes like this.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting how a lot of people disliked the 2010 Rumble match but people here says that it is one of the better ones. I enjoy it more the older it gets but when I was younger, I was a fan of the 15+ people in the ring during the Rumble, like 09.
ReplyDeleteYeah, teach people how not to wrestle.
ReplyDeleteIts they type of match you want to show a non fan to get him into the product....
ReplyDeleteMost underrated: Batista vs. Kennedy RR 07
ReplyDeleteAt least Daniel and Nancy continue to be remembered thanks to these threads....
ReplyDeleteYou can still buy Benoit stuff too, not sure what the comparison is....
ReplyDeleteI'm sure they'll get a lot more aggressive once the network is launched. I think all the great videos posted by WWE on YouTube of late has been a way to combat that at least a little bit.
ReplyDeleteI thought he was pretty damn awesome. He was never the face of the WWE but IMO, when I rematch anything from early 06 when he got on top, who was better?
ReplyDeleteMeh, I don't really think it's snuff filmish. People just didn't know what kind of damage that shit could do to you long term. It's not that much different than watching a 10-20 year old NFL game where everyone is slamming into everyone else's head and the announcers are chuckling and applauding the huge brain melting hits. (Not that I think the match has aged well either, on its own terms).
ReplyDeleteAnd in a weird sort of way, if we fully turn the worm on this and stop appreciating the shit guys like Foley did in their own contexts, we leave him having destroyed his body for nothing at all.
Clearly Aunt Viv, Ashley, Will, and... other characters on TFPOBA read the BoD and are downvoting me
ReplyDeleteThey didn't know? I'm pretty sure that we all knew a couple hundred years ago that getting repeatedly smashed in the head with a heavy blunt object isn't good for your health. And until you can show me an NFL game where someone nearly
ReplyDeleteSmh...
ReplyDeleteWhat would happen to you if they did mention him? Would you melt? Have a nervous breakdown? Get an erection? I don't get it?
ReplyDeleteWell I wan't really stating an opinion I was legit asking since I didn't recall that. But thanks for clarifying.
ReplyDeleteI think he is a naturally skinny guy... I was shocked when he came back for the HoF how thin he had gotten
Yeah, I think it's fair to say that the long term effects of concussions and repeated sub-concussive impact on the brain were not especially widely well known. I mean, I got a concussion in high school football a few years after that, and ended up cleared to go back in the game. If it happened now, the conference I played in would automatically declare me ineligible for the next game at a minimum.
ReplyDeleteIt was just sort of assumed that if you didn't black out or something that head injuries were something you had to tough out, and guys like Foley were making lucrative careers on being better than most at taking that punishment.
And I'm not entirely sure where you were going with that last paragraph, but suffice it to say players have been knocked completely out cold on the field, broken their necks, had their memories scrambled, etc.
Benoit was the man. He went nuts and killed some people. Still the best worker of all time. Don't watch his matches if you don't want but no reason to get so vocal about it. Just move along silently and allow me to enjoy his work in peace without hearing about someone dying makes YOU feel.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't care
ReplyDeleteWhat's wrong with what I said?
ReplyDeleteThank you for telling us how YOU feel
ReplyDeleteShawn is the best worker of all time.
ReplyDeleteCANADIAN VIOLENCE
ReplyDeleteBenoit nowhere close to HBK, he also had little charisma....
ReplyDeleteDo you have kids jobber?
Holy shit enough with the shunning of Benoit already. It's exhausting reading people pick their spots with him. Everything he has done, good & bad, inside & outside of the ring, cannot be undone, edited or erased. It's awful what happened, but it happened & he will be mostly remembered for that. He was also amazing in the ring and is allowed to be recognized for that as well. Its both. A freak in the ring & a murdering bastard outside of it. BOTH. Can we stop splitting fucking hairs every time he pops up on a wrestling list. It is what it is. I choose to just remember the wrestling, because it's impossible to even grasp the reality of what happened at his home. Benoit woke the world up to steroid abuse & the chain reaction reached the WWE in a few positive ways, such as stricter performer safety concerning chair shots and certain dangerous moves. And it appeard as if the Welness program got real. Time to accept he was awesome in the ring & a murdering bastard outside of it. If I was Vince yes I would try to edit him away but the rest of us have zero to lose by mentioning him in a list or praising any of his matches while at the same time being disgusted by him. Now debate away!!!!
ReplyDeletePeople have to misdirect their discomfort at watching people bludgeon each other into oblivion...and Vince really needs you to not ask about how much people were being pushed to destroy themselves from 1995-2005 or so.
ReplyDeleteMentioning and discussing how great he was is fine, its when people get mad when he isnt featured on DVDs or not a viable candidate for the HOF is when it gets dumb....
ReplyDelete...the fact that people think this murdering piece of crap should be honored in any way is pretty damn sad...
"Yeah, I think it's fair to say that the long term effects of concussions and repeated sub-concussive impact on the brain were not especially widely well known."
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure the effects of intentionally smashing a guy in the head at full force about 20 times with a steel chair have been widely known for quite a while.
Fuck, I'm not even "disgusted" by him, really. By basically every account I've ever read, he had MASSIVE amounts of brain damage, and was showing signs of dementia and psychosis before the crime. It's not like he was some sort of long running sociopath who was making pitstops on the road to rape and kill hookers or schoolchildren or something, he's a guy whose brain was reduced to mush and probably had some sort of psychotic break/dissociative episode (in other words, he was totally crazy) that ended with him killing his whole family.
ReplyDeleteWait until the Jovan Belcher brain scan results come out...
Its arguable. I could live with hbk as #1. He bumped better, but benoit was pretty fucking insane
ReplyDeleteShort term effects, maybe. Long term effects? No way. By the same token, you could say exactly the same thing about having 230+ pound guys who run 4.4 40's running into each other full speed for 3.5 hours (plus practice time). But it's really only in the past 5 years or so that anyone has given even the slightest shit about head injuries in football.
ReplyDeleteBenoit only wrestled until he was 40 though. Flair is better
ReplyDeleteThank you for telling us that we cannot buy Wrestlemania XX on Bluray.
ReplyDeleteYou really wanna see Brock vs Goldberg on Bluray that badly?
ReplyDeleteI've always thought Benoit was overrated.
ReplyDeleteI have it on regular DVD. The trivia game is easy
ReplyDeleteThe #1 thing that annoys me about Vince white washing Benoit is how its embraced by fans like he's doing the classy thing when in reality he's just trying to duck any culpability he has for creating that situation and causing a few dozen other guys to drop dead. Bottom line, if you didn't (don't?) juice you won't get pushed, and if you didn't (don't?) work hurt you lose your spot.
ReplyDeleteIf it was just a guy or two, okay thats on them. But when its 25 or 30 guys and every shoot ive ever heard said pills got (get?) passed out like candy in the locker room. I'm supposed to believe a control freak like Vince didn't know and approve?
Shawn was a better bumper, Benoit's the better technical guy.
ReplyDeleteShawn tells a story in the ring a lot better too..
ReplyDeleteAlso had a bunch more charisma....
Nowhere close to hbk? No way? He's probably had more 5 star matches than anyone else. Hbk vs angle at wm21 is a great match but angle vs benoit at the rumble (01 I think) is a better match. One of hbks greatest matches was vs benoit. I'll concede Shawn was better at taking the big crazy bumps but benoit is neck and neck with shawn at worst.
ReplyDeleteI don't have any kids.
Benoit sold the athleticism part of it better.
ReplyDeleteI assume that, for some, it's a subconscious way to funnel absolution for a lot of the over the top shit that went on during and after the Monday Night Wars. I mean, it's always "Benoit makes me feel icky because he killed his kid," and never "watching Benoit makes me feel icky because he did a suicide dive headfirst into a steel guardrail and all the brain damage he inflicted on himself ended with him killing his whole family." By the same token, no one ever says Vince should whitewash ECW out of existence because all of the crazy fucked up shit they did to each other.
ReplyDeleteAnd Shawn's better at the high-flying stuff but Benoit was the better chain wrestler.
ReplyDeleteOkay that is true. Flair is better for sure
ReplyDeleteSorry, I just dont see Benoit on HBK's level...
ReplyDelete...sure he was a great technical wrestler and put on some great matches but he just wasnt the complete package Shawn was...
Well I'm not talking total package, I'm just saying from bell to bell. His promos were weak as fuck. With benoit it was all just work rate and he could play the no nonsense bad ass which is basically fine for a heel but has a ceiling for a baby face.
ReplyDeleteHe wasnt even an interesting heel though...
ReplyDeleteI think you're missing the point here. Football is real, wrestling isn't. One has a chance of getting you hurt, the other has a pre-planned outcome.
ReplyDeleteI think we can use the Kurt angle matches as a litmus test. I think the rumble match with cb is better than the wm21 vs Shawn. Shawn took way better "Henning" bumps and is definitely amazing and without any question had a far far far superior career but benoit was pretty close to being technically flawless IMO.
ReplyDeleteLol. Well fwiw the crowd will sound even better
ReplyDeleteBoth matches are great but both have flaws. Benoit v. Angle overuses the suplexes and HBK v. Angle has HBK's usual spotty selling
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more. This is 100% true.
ReplyDeletePeople have to remember WWE is a publicly traded company, making money off selling stuff or honoring a man that killed his wife and young child is in poor taste and not good for business...
ReplyDelete....I would assume nobody here was close with or knew Chris Benoit but the folks that did seem fine with the stance WWE has taken. Hell you could see some on the Benoit tribute night were not comfortable honoring him on that evening...
The problem is also made worse when people get mad at the people who don't get mad that he's a murdering piece of crap. And then it escalates.
ReplyDeleteIm betting WWE would play with the crowd noise....
ReplyDeleteMyself having two kids probably makes me a bit biased in how I feel about Benoit. I was never a big fan of his, although he was cool to me the time I met him, but I enjoyed his RR win and WM XX triumph....
ReplyDeleteYeah I agree 100% that they over did the suplexes in that match. I just really don't like the finish to hbk vs angle and the 5 minute ankle lock spot.
ReplyDeleteI didn't like that HBK hung in forever but I like that he tapped
ReplyDeleteGood point. I have a DVD of wrestlemania 22 somewhere and they altered the crowd noise in the cena vs hhh match into generic sound
ReplyDeleteI've heard y2j and bret say basically they should leave his matches intact.
ReplyDeleteLeaving a benoit match on a nitro they were showing on COD anyways isn't honoring his life though.
ReplyDeleteThis might be the most articulate and well thought out post I've read on this blog. Couldn't agree more with all of tthis
ReplyDeleteExactly! He basically morphed into a different person due to brain damage.
ReplyDeleteIve seen many others asked and they feel that WWE does the right thing...
ReplyDelete...they simply cannot look like they are benefiting from his work..
If they wind up doing business with Goldberg again, I could see the next WM XX release having piped in Goldberg chants...
ReplyDeleteI think some people really misunderstand how brain damage works. I've seen people say here that he wasn't that nuts because he was lucid amd seemed to methodically committed the murders. If you know anything about neurodegenerative diseases, this is a completely false assertion.
ReplyDeleteIve always believed the man lost his mind and had no clue what he was doing but he did it and that is why his legacy is what it is...
ReplyDelete...only thing that does bother me is why he would kill himself if he didnt know what he was doing was wrong...
I spent a lot of time talking to the nurses at the nursing home my grandfather was at because I was morbidly/horrifficly transfixed by Alzheimer's as he was suffering with it, and the most common stories you heard were about the patients with Alzheimer's and dementia having really, really violent outburst during their less lucid spells.
ReplyDeleteIt's entirely possible that Benoit was having straight-up hallucinations in his final days/weeks (and I think some of the people around him probably knew something was very, very wrong; cfe Regal's very curt words on the Raw tribute show). This line of thinking just isn't going to get you anywhere.
ReplyDeleteI've got three kids, and don't find that it necessarily makes me drastically more reactionary.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that's the right way to phrase it. More to the point: He was probably having all fucking kinds of severe psychotic episodes. Basic problems with dementia, periods where he was probably blacking out and making little sense to anyone around him, paranoia, delusions, volatile emotions and lack of impulse control, possibly hallucinations, etc. It's not about personality or morals, it's about the literal, physical, breakdown of his brain.
ReplyDeletePut another way: If a mental patient with a limited grasp on reality kills some random person because he thinks the victim is an alien spy here to pave the way for the invasion of Earth and the enslavement of humans, do we look at the killer and say "HE'S A MONSTER!!!!!"? No, for the most part we understand it through the context of someone whose brain isn't working properly. We don't excuse it, per se, but we don't view him the same way as a serial killer or wife batterer or some thug who shoots someone during a petty robbery for expediency or something like that.
I don't think it's fair to simply classify him as a "murder" without disclosing everything else that went into the situtation. That's why this whitewashing of him annoys me. It's Vince trying to cover his own ass by just erasing it them by acknowledging any indirect responsiblity in it. The best way to present it would be to acknowledge his role in your company, present all the facts, and then allow the public to decide on how they want to view him or interpret the story.
ReplyDeleteIf i had to guess I'd say his neuro degeneration presented itself in bouts of severe lucid psychosis. I'd bet anything it had happened before but their was no consequences of it do it went unnoticed.
Regal's words were the ones that stood out most...
ReplyDeleteI kind of get tired when people say that the problem was steroids. Those who have watched he matches know that it wasn't that. He through caution to the wind, trying to sell every move to the 10th degree unprotected, and in the end, the consequences of his actions showed.
ReplyDeleteI think Vince has his hands tied in the matter though. The media and focus groups would eat him alive if he started profiting from a guy that murdered his family...
ReplyDelete...I honestly believe Vince and co knew what was up when they went on the air with the Benoit tribute and figured this would be the last chance to honor the guy they once knew and respected...
Thats one of the best Kennedy matches ever
ReplyDeleteI thought the punk thing was the only real highlite of that rumble
ReplyDeleteThis makes no sense. The outcome might be pre-planned, but the physical acts are real, and come with a very real chance of injury. And I have no idea what this has to do with the state of contemporary medical knowledge, particularly amongst the players/wrestlers themselves.
ReplyDeleteWell they would coach guys up to kill people going over the middle and try and knock guys out.
ReplyDeleteHardyz vs Dudleyz first ever Tables match > Raven vs Benoit
ReplyDeleteRoyal Rumble 2012 was also lame. Can't believe you picked that match over Umaga/Cena. To this day my favorite last man standing match.
We should treat Benoit like Verne Gagne, worthy of pity, not scorn.
ReplyDeleteJudging by the way the comments are going, is Benoit more or less WWE's version of Disney's Song of the South, but with justification?
ReplyDeleteYES YES YES
ReplyDeleteNot even close....
ReplyDeleteThat was a well thought out post.
ReplyDeleteNope, it's a lot simpler than that: Vince wants the narrative to continue to be that Benoit is a horrible, soulless monster who up and killed his wife and kid because that's what evil monsters do...specifically so that no one starts asking questions about working conditions in WWF/E, how injuries were handled, etc., because if they start doing that there's a really high probability that Vince and WWE are going to be staring down billions of dollars in settlements to former workers for their injuries. And given all of the pain pills that were going around and so on, they could easily be looking at punitive damages too.
ReplyDeleteThe killing the kid part is what gets me, I mean I wouldnt be appalled if Benoit was featured on a DVD or a telecast but if they honored him with a HOF induction, Id be disgusted...
ReplyDeleteIt was ok.
ReplyDeleteIt was in the honorable mentions, not the official countdown.
ReplyDeleteI cant agree with this at all, he already went through all this stuff back when it happened and did the only thing he could do.....
ReplyDelete...as far as lawsuits, they are independent contractors, they know the risk involved in the profession. Vince never told em they had to be wrestlers, they chose the profession...
I don't think anyone thinks he should be in the HOF tho. Thatd be insane. There's definitely a difference in proactively promoting or mentioning the guy and quietly trying to erase him so you don't have to ever acknowledge that you may have had some indirect responsiblity in the entire situation.
ReplyDeleteThat's not how the law works.
ReplyDeleteThe tables match and the Last Man Standing match are both very good. Personally, the tables match hasn't gotten better with age, but is still pretty solid. The Cena-Umaga match I would probably rate at ****. I just felt that the Benoit-Raven match is one of those forgotten classics.
ReplyDeleteIve seen plenty that think this guy belongs in the HOF.....
ReplyDelete...I simply cannot blame Vince for the career choices these guys make. He was doing a flying headbutt way before being employed by Vince...
...Vince does seem like he has tried to fix some stuff, I know some feel the wellness thing is a joke but he has also banned some dangerous moves such as the piledrivers and you dont see folks blading anymore either...
This guy gets it!
ReplyDeleteWouldnt there be all kinds of lawsuits out there vs WWE for this if there was a case?
ReplyDeleteDISCUSSION! However, I feel my comments about Benoit may have taken the focus off the list itself. It was inevitable since Benoit was involved in so many of the matches I went through, and I was just reminded of what a technician he truly was.
ReplyDeleteYou just found out what WWE wants you to do.
ReplyDeleteIf we can't watch, we can't heal.
ReplyDeleteOh, uh, good post and welcome to the BOD.
ReplyDeleteIf there were enough people who were willing to completely burn their bridges with Vince and WWE, sure. You need a class action and a whole bunch of guys willing to swear to Vince showing callous disregard for workers' well being, being aware of all of the pain pills and other chemical coping mechanisms being used, etc. My guess is that there aren't enough guys willing to do that, especially since most of the guys from that era are still working.
ReplyDeleteI don't see it anywhere. :(
ReplyDeleteI don't think you're giving the LMS match enough credit. John Cena was super bad ass in that match. Blading like a pig, putting Umaga over HUGE as a monster. That match doesn't get enough love IMO
ReplyDeleteI don't wish to hurt you, and I won't. Goodbye.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, I love it.
ReplyDeleteFWIW, I didn't really find anything wrong with your list at all. Probably would have put Angle-Benoit in the top five, but other than that this is pretty damn solid.
ReplyDeleteI just meant that those matches where honorable mentions, not that it was in it.
ReplyDeleteBoth killed with a diseased brain. Close enough for me.
ReplyDeleteI think we should just let Princess Kenny have her moment..
ReplyDeleteShawn was definitely the better "entertainer", as his matches featured a lot of over-the-top spots, but nobody could bring the realism and intensity like Benoit.
ReplyDeleteShawn was more like a flashy kung-fu movie, Benoit was a gritty depiction of realistic violence.
That realistic violence sure came in handy...
ReplyDeleteSo Shawn was Bruce Lee? Who would Benoit be then?
ReplyDeleteBut he's on tried to fix it because of what happened with Benoit, to skirt potential liabilities, and gain dome good PR.
ReplyDeleteThe way I look at it is Vince created the sandbox the wrestlers had to play it. The "bigger, stronger, faster" attitude dictated that guys needed to be huge or roided up to get a push, travel 270+ nights a year, and pull out all the stops in the ring. Cumulatively, this is gonna lead to rampant drug use, pain pills, steroids, etc. I don't believe he forced anyone to do steroids or anything else but I'm sure it was status quo and Vince knew exactly what was going on
I'll add that, for others, it's a kind of subconscious cop out: A way of avoiding uncomfortable thoughts about how much we all loved Benoit's work specifically because (ultimately) of the shit he was doing that was completely destroying his body and brain.
ReplyDeleteAny reason why you didn't include Angle/Benoit. Pretty surprising to leave it out. It's universally agreed as the best WWE match of the last 10 years.
ReplyDeleteIt's so easy to forget all of Punk's "pre-Pipebomb" work, but the stuff he did in 2009 and 2010 (his feud with Jeff Hardy, the "SES") was friggin' amazing.
ReplyDeleteJust a MASTERFUL mic-worker.
Vince knew what was going on but these are grown ups, if they didnt want to do it, they didnt have to...
ReplyDelete...That Vince somehow seems to be getting more blame than the guy that actually did it is pretty odd....
...It would be idiotic if he started selling DVDs and stuff with Benoit on it. Obviously he wishes he could as the guys that were also in these matches are robbed of career highlights. Orton's first title win cannot be discussed or featured, believe me that bothers Vince....
Im not sure I can agree with that, I dont even think its the best Benoit match of the last 10 years....
ReplyDeleteWhen I did the list, the easy inclusions were Foley-HHH, RR 92, RR 04 and RR 10. I was weighing the last spot between Benoit-Angle and Benoit-Raven. I love Benoit-Angle, but I've seen it several times. Basically, it came down to me wanting to show support for the Benoit-Raven match.
ReplyDelete