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The Postgame: On the cusp of "great change?"

Maybe Jim Cornette said it. I'm not sure, but it sounds like something he would say. It may have been a poster here in the comment section, for all I know. I really don't remember; it's been years.

Aside from it being poor form to not properly attribute a quote, it doesn't really matter. It was the most precise, one-to-two sentence description of what John Cena's eventual place in WWE lore should have been: he's not The Rock, Stone Cold or Hulk Hogan. But he's a big enough star to put over the performer who becomes the next iconic, breakthrough sensation. He's not The Man, but he has enough juice to turn someone else into that. 

In some ways, Cena just might be in that pantheon anyway; he's never sent business through the stratosphere on his own or become a true household name the way those three did. But he has put a good enough public face on WWE over the years to keep business steadily profitable for 10 years, now, and at least provide the veneer of mainstream stardom. 

With as many entertainment choices as there are today, maybe that's as big of a star as a professional wrestler is now capable of being. Would Johnny Carson as iconic today, with millions of 18-to-49 viewers preferring the cable snark of Stewart, Colbert and Conan to the network late-night hosts? Probably not.

Insofar as one can tell, the only items on the checklist keeping Cena from being remembered as an all-time great in the real sense, and not just in the kayfabe sense, are his consistently mixed-at-best reactions for nearly his entire run and crowd fatigue. Proven money-maker years after years? Check. Crossover mainstream attention? Check, at least as much as one can be today. Consistently delivers great matches on a big stage? Classics with Shawn Michaels, CM Punk, Rob Van Dam, Daniel Bryan, Brock Lesnar and The Rock (at least the first one, though not even Punk could drag a good match out of The Rock in 2013) make that a big check. Reliability and someone who truly puts a good public face on pro wrestling? Few in history top him in this regard. 

Still, before this can be considered a love letter to Cena- it's not; I don't know if he's ever even been one of my five favorite performers at any given time- his matches have never felt like a bigger deal than when he's defending the title against an up-and-comer with whom the crowd has firmly planted their flag: Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand. CM Punk at Money in the Bank. Daniel Bryan at Summerslam. Not even his buyrate record-setting match against The Rock felt as monumental as those title tilts were, because in those matches Cena represented the obstacle between the stagnated status quo, and a revolution. 

In an impassioned backstage promo on last night's Raw, Cena walked the now-commonplace line between fiction and reality, somewhere between subtly and overtly referring to the disgruntled crowds of late in describing the WWE as "on the cusp of great change," which is obviously a claim that will always be met with great skepticism considering the subject matter. 

He proceeded by calling out the present and future of the WWE to pay attention to the statement he planned on making against Randy Orton in the night's main event: "That statement goes to the Wyatts, to the Shield, to Antonio Cesaro or Daniel Bryan: if any of you think you have what it takes to carry the future of the WWE? Know that you will have to go through me to get it." 

This site's fearless leader would probably respond to that by saying, "I love shoot comments that aren't supposed to be shoot comments." But Cena's still a relatively young, healthy man; he's only three years older than Austin was when he won his first WWF title. So for those already disgruntled with a product they perceive as stagnant and deaf to their fans, the last line of that promo is a potentially harrowing truth. 

So, with Hollywood not beating his door down the way they did for Dwyane, he's probably right: anyone who wants to be the "face of the WWE" does have to go through Cena in one manner of speaking or another. 

(Though, with as obnoxiously as they've made that phrase a plot point in recent months, I'm not sure I'd want the job, because maybe the fans are going to eventually reject whoever is in that spot. Maybe Bryan's promo about preferring just to be known as "Daniel Bryan" rather than the "face of the WWE" also had more truth in it than we realized.) 

And maybe that's how it should be, that if Bryan, Reigns or whoever else wants the job needs to clearly supplant Cena. To be the man, and all that.

Still, it feels like his career full of insanely loud, very mixed crowd reactions has still been a missed opportunity to create an entirely new wave of bona fide superstars. It feels like he was uniquely positioned to be able to really, truly be a starmaker. It feels like the special moments in which he stared at the lights as crowds lost their collective minds for RVD, Punk, Bryan should have had more come from them than they did. 

Or maybe I was right about this being as big as a wrestling star can be today, and just pulling them somewhat near his level is the best he can do. 

Comments

  1. So, speaking as a guy who has worked as a "legit" independent contractor, an employee, and as an "independent contractor" where you could still be promoted based on your performance:


    The difference you're assuming between Ziggler's case and an employee is actually not that different. Most independent contracts are not based around the idea of a "promotion" (e.g. Ziggler's push) at any point in time. These aren't really "independent contracts" with the same expectation as such. They are ways to skirt paying benefits.


    That means that if one wants a promotion, they should be prepared to air their grievances like a mature adult and expect that if they're publicly shooting their mouth off that maybe they aren't getting that promotion. (or push).


    A legitimate independent contract is one that already slots your role, expectation, and duration ahead of time with no upward or downward mobility. that's not the WWE's independent contract, especially given the structure and nature thereof.

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  2. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:08 AM

    Jobbex LLC

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  3. I am pasting this here as well because I know you're busy Keith and liekly don't persue every comment looking for my response. ;)

    So, speaking as a guy who has worked as a "legit" independent contractor, an employee, and as an "independent contractor" where you could still be promoted based on your performance:

    The difference you're assuming between Ziggler's case and an employee is actually not that different. Most independent contracts are not based around the idea of a "promotion" (e.g. Ziggler's push) at any point in time. These aren't really "independent contracts" with the same expectation as such. They are ways to skirt paying benefits.

    That means that if one wants a promotion, they should be prepared to air their grievances like a mature adult and expect that if they're publicly shooting their mouth off that maybe they aren't getting that promotion. (or push).

    A legitimate independent contract is one that already slots your role, expectation, and duration ahead of time with no upward or downward mobility. that's not the WWE's independent contract, especially given the structure and nature thereof.

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  4. Yeah, re-reading that I should have added that if Miz was in a solid team, he'd be much more tolerable

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  5. Absolutely agreed. And when they're well-liked and THEN get attacked, the heel gets over. Hell, remember when Vader beat the hell out of Gorilla Monsoon? He got over huge as a heel, even though it sadly didn't go anywhere because WWF gave up on Vader later on.

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  6. They're still good friends last I heard. They weren't together around the time of his DVD and she was featured on that.

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  7. Oh, I get that, by why not make money from an over tag team, and THEN make money from an over single?

    I'll admit to being biased, I enjoy tag wrestling more than singles, nine times out of ten.

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  8. Great stip. I might pull a Jeff Hardy victory road if I don't go over.

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  9. 'Is Lita going to induct her?'

    yo dawg, i heard you like inducting yourself

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  10. Lawler was awful on commentary long before Vince started micromanaging the announcers.

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  11. WWE isn't a "normal working world".


    A guy like Ziggler shoots his mouth off and gets depushed. A guy like JBL goose-steps in Germany and is not only not punished by his employer (WWE), but rewarded with a near year long title reign.

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  12. jake was born out love, not lust

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  13. Here is the premilinary BoD Card


    Jobber123 vs. Cultstatus for the strap
    Parallax vs. Farva in the sobriety or shitfaced match
    Caliber Winfield & ????? vs. Paul Meekin & White Thunder
    Logan Scisco vs. Tommy Hall
    The final match of the BoD Tag Team Tournament that took place in Rio de Janeiro


    There might be a MITB match or I might do a BoD MITB separate show


    And the famed 20 man preshow battle royal

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  14. "He's only three years older than Austin was when he won his first WWF title."

    Five years after Austin won his first WWF title, his career was over.

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  15. i guess dynamite kid cant compete due to injury

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  16. Imagine if they
    ran with cult’s fantasy booking scenario from a few days ago (which they won’t)
    of an Authroity-backed heel group of Batista, Orton, Brock and Cena, or even
    something similar and had them continuously beat down Bryan (and Punk if he returns). Then one night as Raw is ending you’ve got
    the 3 or 4 of them in the ring kicking the shit out of DB and Punk and cutting
    a smartass promo about “We’re sick of
    listening to you idiot fans crying about everything that Daniel Bryan has had
    to put up with. Poor Daniel Bryan. Well boo hoo.
    If you thought that was bad, wait until you see what’s next. We’ve got your “injustice” right here, and
    there isn’t a damn thing anyone can do about it!” and just kept stomping the
    shit out of him. Have a back and forth with
    them sarcastically “YES”ing each stomp while the crowd loudly chants “NO” in
    response. When they’re at a fever pitch…SIERRA
    HOTEL INDIA ECHO LIMA DELTA hits. Shield
    clears the ring, crowd goes apeshit, you’ve got Reigns as your new megastar,
    Rollins and Ambrose turn with him, and the four (or five) of them lead WWE into
    the future.

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  17. Its been beaten to death, but Cena is one late-career heel run away from being one TIP TOP of all time. As it stands, he's still one of the best ever. Its not like smarks (god I hate that word) hate him, they're just bored of his act.

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  18. Nice. I love the Logan vs Hall program. May I nominate Mr E Mahn or Yankees HHH Hogan or whatever his name is for Caliber tag partner?

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  19. For sure it's not a "normal working world". But certain aspects of the "normal working world" apply.


    What you described with JBL is no different than what happens corporately every day. He took an action that wasn't liked, he explained himself, he had a great relationship with the company and his boss, and because of that great relationship his issue was overlooked. Abraham Johnson or whoever made the Kobe joke was canned, not just because of the joke but because
    a) he handled the fallout poorly and publicly.
    b) he didn't have the relationship capital that JBL did.


    Again, that's not actually that different than how the professional world works! I'm sure we all have examples.

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  20. I shall not ruin the surprise. Part of a big angle in the BoD.

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  21. Ha. Gotcha. If Vince Jordan vs Nebbs pet rock isn't on there as a pre show match...

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  22. But Austin's career ended due to a neck injury he sustained before he was even champion. The point is that Cena isn't particularly old, at least in wrestling terms. Considering his conditioning, he's probably got at least five years of being a regular, high-level performer.

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  23. Nebb28's Pet Rock is a centerpiece of the show

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  24. The problem is on how the Heel character would be,just coming out and insulting the people won't be good enough,my call would be to crank his gimmick 100x,make a douchebag-cocky-fashion-pseudo-star,bring his Bella as Valet,film a segment where he changes his gear and now wear fashions clothes.

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  25. That sounds like an awesome card, with one notable omission... clearly the show needs more Dougie.

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  26. He's hovering around the Hogan, Rock, Austin, Savage territory imo

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  27. Cena turning on the fans with promo out of Foley's playbook would be GOLDEN. I have no doubt Cena would make an excellent heel and I'm not talking about his rapper persona.

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  28. That was my question. Apparently, there are those who believe there is a LOT.

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  29. Oh come ON! You know that's not true.

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  30. Card is still being worked on.

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  31. Only way Cena turns heel is if his merchandise stops selling like Hogan's did before his big turn. Plus, WWE probably doesn't see a huge viable babyface to take over Cena's face throne. Bryan could be there, but I can't see Vince pulling that trigger just yet. He may still view the Bryan YES movement as a flash in the pan.

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  32. He never killed anybody or molested kids, so he's stuck at US title-level shitbag. Sad when a guy who held a gun to his wife's head is still better than these guys.

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  33. Well sure. I'm just saying that if the time ever comes where it does happen, its going to be good.

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  34. I think they're grooming Reigns as the heir apparent to Cena. It'll take a year or two but u think that's when Cena turns, when Reigns is ready

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  35. So their waiting for Roman to take over the reigns?

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  36. You're right. It's going to be insane. The promos of Cena destroying the fans is going to be so good.

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  37. Geez, Bayless, way to no-sell my joking and generally jovial nature.

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  38. I was gonna ask if Steven Ferrari could be my partner, make sure all my moves are spelled correctly and such.

    But if it's a surprise partner, I'm cool with that, and have a pretty good idea of who it'll be.

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  39. The GM has no time for jokes. Just kidding, I have some more ideas to get people involved. Tough decisions to be made, some people will not like their position on the card but at the end, it is what's best for business

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  40. It might even be a singles match against Meekin, with Steve in your corner.


    The choices are endless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  41. I fully support the new "People Power" administration!

    (I'm angling for the Otunga role. I already have my coffee mug and purple sweater!)

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  42. That's the problem, they're "grooming" people to take over, and that has never worked for WWE. Shawn Michaels was "groomed", Triple H was "groomed", Randy Orton and Batista were "groomed", but who did the fans cling to despite all that? Austin, Rock, and Cena respectively.

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  43. The executive clinical director of human operations and business decisions

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  44. Him screaming about womans tits was the only thing that bugged me prior. Maybe it was just JR being so amazing that made him better? All I know now is he's pretty unbearable, b

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  45. That sounds like the most important title I'll ever have...

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  46. Agreed all-around. That's why I steered clear of Cena as a heel in this piece, because it's kind of besides the point anyway. He already willingly plays the heel- albeit not going full-bore, insult-the-crowd, cheat-to-win- when the situation calls for it. When you see some of the immature ways that even vets like Orton and Batista have dealt with crowds not responding as they want to, it makes me realize how special Cena is. The contrast between how he deals with it and how they've dealt with it recently was the other thing that prompted me to write this, besides Cena's promo last night.

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  47. That's really, really good. They'll never do it because it's not cookie cutter and safe but it's awesome to envision it happening.

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  48. Oh sure, CW, NOW you want me back editing your stuff! After you just callously stopped asking for my help!

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  49. How did I get thrown into that mix? I was scrolling down, saw my name and got confused...

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  50. If parallax wins, it'll be because of the pizza I may or may not be buying him Friday.

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  51. I disagree. Some of these guys will get over organically to a point but most of them have to be groomed to REALLY be cemented as the top guy. Look at Austin, they needed Bret to get him to that next level.

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  52. yeah, cena gets it. He'd be Hollywood Rock level of dickishness as a heel.

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  53. I can't help it! When I left the BoD, I stopped writing for an audience that contained people with too much time on their hands who'd have a bitch fit because I wrote "everyday" instead of "every day". However, I have been writing for a pretty large audience on another website, and planned on sending you my latest article when it's done so I can maintain my expected level of perfect awesomeness.

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  54. Yep. Precisely my point: he's still a young man and still going strong with no end in sight at roughly the same age as when the end of the line had already come (for widely varying reasons) for Hogan, Rock and Austin.

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  55. I'd be fine with that if that meant they were holding off Bryan's win for Wrestlemania. Kane was made for throwaway feuds.

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  56. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANFebruary 11, 2014 at 11:36 AM

    A publicly traded company should have fired him on the spot.

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  57. Threadjack:

    I don't know if anyone posted this in the JoMo thread yesterday but here is his battle rap about HHH/UT

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZbqLfADtxQ

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  58. What did Sweetan do, I thought he was just an asshole?

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  59. My guess would be Trish. (Unless of course they can track down Essa Rios.)

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  60. It's not like he pulled the trigger.

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  61. You suck at rapping JoMo.

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  62. *gasp* TRAITOR!

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  63. Probably. I'm actually in the same camp as you guys there - I thought it was horrendously inappropriate. But there are lots of instances where someone does something horrible and isn't fired either because there simply isn't all that much PR backlash (and there wasn't all that much in relation) or the relationship thing I described above.

    That being said, I will bet you that he would've been fired if this happened during Linda's campaign.

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  64. It will be Edge,Hardys,Punk and the rest of the locker room that had intercourse with her.

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  65. Mears: I'm a fan of this. Well done

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  66. C'mon! Otunga wears purple! It's perfect for me to take over! I have to play to my strengths!

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  67. Rocky Maivia was groomed from the start.

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  68. Perhaps Savage, but a more apt comparison would be Bret Hart or Sting. I think all 3 are guys who are franchise quality wrestlers, but aren't necessarily transcendent performers. Similarly, Bret and Sting didn't have the wrestling firepower available at their apex that Austin (Michaels, Bret, Rock) and Hogan (Piper, Sheik, Orndorff) had available as opponents.

    There's a part of me that has always thought of Cena as the guy who they were going to feed the next transcendent start to, but the star in question never came along. The shame is that transcendent star could have led to a Cena heel turn and *made* him transcendent. Instead, we are all stuck (him included) into "poopy" Cena babyface.

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  69. Whichever one has the least money and biggest drinking problem?

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  70. And you've answered the Q.

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  71. I don't think it'll go that direction. I think the way he turns heel- and for those that love to respond to this with "durr, he's not turning heel, please understand that those of us discussing it know it might not be for another five years or so- is by turning up everything about his face character to the point that it's so obnoxious that no one cheers for him. Going the opposite direction and ripping the fans will make those who hate his pandering face character cheer him.


    Plus, the whole "megastar becomes jaded with fans he perceives as turning on him" bit has been done. Cena's spent the last eight years acknowledging that many fans don't like him. Cranking up the things they already don't like about him to where even the kiddies find a new hero is the way to go. I understand that this is basically the bit Bo Dallas does now in NXT, but I think Cena would kill with it. Don't do ANYTHING badass.

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  72. Didn't Jake also admit he was molested?

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  73. A secret alliance between Rick Steiner and Sting?

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  74. That is a pretty decent argument. But being my Executive Assistant in Charge of Assisting means you get to wear that cool space suit that Lex Luthor wears!

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  75. WTF. How is he getting so many pizzas off the BoD. If i was more of a bastard I'd go back on our deal just to protest his pizza winnings.

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  76. That sex tape's still out there.

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  77. Ditto. Love this style of piece. FEED US MORE

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  78. I honest-to-God don't even remember why I'm supposed to buy him a pizza, but it's only if he doesn't have a date Friday night. Here's hoping he's planning on getting him some.

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  79. I thought that was just my regular Tuesday suit...

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  80. It is still up in the air... I won't have a formal date, but I think I may be getting some later in the evening...

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  81. FEEL THE PARALLAX1978 FLOWING THROUGH YOU AND BE... SAVED!

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  82. Yeah, obviously they need that extra push, but Austin and Cena specifically weren't guys that WWE wanted to be their top guys.

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  83. I could probably be Caliber's partner. I've got a 15 month old so I'm used to carrying guys.

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  84. He's not my type.

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  85. I'm pulling a Jeff Hardy Victory Road unless Bayless has me going over.

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  86. You know, I do have feelings, Mystery.

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  87. I do kinda, sorta get the logic, but then why even sign him in the first place?


    Who says "we're gonna give you a lot of money and then NOT try to make any of it back"? Other than Vince McMahon?

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  88. Like when Orton was being all psyco face, RKO-ing bitches left and right.

    Have Cena come out and say he's gonna give Orton a "stern talking too."

    So moral 10-year olds call him a pussy

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  89. What a blue chipper he was

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  90. Fox News or whatever channel that hosted the show he was on fired him immediately.

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  91. Maybe. It's so hard comparing wwe now with wwe 80s- 90s just because their business model is so different. They promote the brand before any singular performer when it was the opposite back in Hogans and Austins day. I don't think Cena is there yet but he'll be REALLY close by the time he retires.

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  92. What about Triple H? He holds people down and says not-nice things about online fans!

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  93. Well you'd better do something about that, it doesn't say Ballet of Doom on the marquis.

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  94. On paper, that makes sense. Problem is that Tamina is awful in the ring and has no charisma.

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  95. When I think of Cena, I in no way think of him as being one of the greatest of all time. Like not at all. But when you step back and look at it, he's been on top for 8 years, held the title 14 times, he's had some great matches...so based on his resume he probably is, he just doesn't come off that way.


    Jericho's theory is that the guys who get really over are the guys that other guys want to be like and women want to fuck. I can't speak of women but I know I've never looked at Cena and thought I wanted to be like him. I always thought his character was lame, like this guy who's trying to hard to be cool. He's the guy from Pretty Fly For a White Guy. But I guess kids like it...


    His story-lines are mostly the same thing. Some bad guy wants the title. Cena defeats him to retain it. Some bad guy cheats to win the title, Cena defeats him to regain it. Sometimes the odds are stacked against him, supposedly, but it doesn't matter because he's going to win anyway. Steve Austin had the odds against him a lot of times and over-came them because he was an established tough guy ass kicker. He's get the shit kicked out of him, sell it, but would fight back until he won. Cena never acts like he's in any danger and seems just as likely to win whether it's 1 on 1 or 1 on 3. Every now and then they throw in a "Cena's going into this one hurt" but he doesn't act any differently.


    I don't think he's the most talented guy in the world, he just has something going for him that people seem to like and he's been able to do similar versions of the same thing over and over for 8 years. He's like Nickelback. They're successful and people seem to like their 3 minute radio rock songs that all sound a like but I'd never call them one of the greatest of all time.

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  96. Cena is as much on the level of those past guys as he possibly can be. I mean Austin doesn't get over in this "era". Hogan's reign of terror doesn't last NEAR as long. I mean Hogan wrestled on television what three times a year?


    Hogan's gimmick would have worn out a lot more quickly had they had the product they have today. Nearly 30 hours of WWE a month in prime time viewing is a lot to take in for anyone.


    Austin was just part of that wonderful time period that was the Attitude era. Austin can't do that character in the era before him and he can't do that in the era after him. Steve Austin today wouldn't be able to drink beer, he wouldn't be able to curse and if he came along now he wouldn't have a heel authority figure willing to show ass for him the way Vince was. I never got the appeal of The Rock past say his first face turn in 99. He was great as a heel but his babyface character was essentially "let me make fun of the guy I'm wrestling". There are VERY few impassioned promos by the Rock on the level of Mick Foley or the rest of his peers.


    Cena is as in that rare air of Hogan and Austin. Its hard to put the Rock in that level since he was a full time main eventer for what about two years? Survivor Series 98 until Wrestlemania X7. So yeah Cena is as much the guy as the current product and its settings let him be.


    Most on here would never admit to being a Hulk Hogan fan they'll all insist they preferred Savage or someone else and never cared about Hogan but the truth is thats just silly posturing. The guy didn't get the reactions he got for as long as he did because a bunch of six year old kids were like "I'm not feeling his workrate yo". Cena is everybit that same guy to the kids these days. Just like Austin was every bit that guy to us when we were Rugrats all growed up.


    Hogan, Austin, Cena everybody else was 1B or lower. Its of my belief that you can't get your name on the tippy top of the mountain when you weren't even the biggest star of your generation. Savage was never ever a bigger name than Hulk Hogan. He could have been but he never was. The Rock has enjoyed more mainstream success but he wasn't around near long enough hell his entire pro wrestling career lasted what five years at the very most? Today there is nobody that is even Cena's 1B everybody is quite a few notches lower.

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  97. The blue chipper was groomed from the start, not the "most electrifying man in sport entertainment".

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  98. Wasnt it alleged that he drugged and then banged lots of women in the 80s? That's a jerk that belongs on the list.

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  99. Wait, what's the story with Zumhoffe?

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  100. Does anyone else find it annoying that so many people still call it "the WWE." As in, "the World Wrestling Entertainment." It just doesn't make sense.

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  101. Yeah but how much of Cena's reign on top was due to their insistence he remain there? There's a lot of people who watch WWE because they want to watch wrestling and simply tolerate Cena, essentially waiting out his run hoping for someone new to come along. He's hated by half the audience on any given night....if Steve Austin or Hulk Hogan got that kind of reaction and they kept them on top than half the audience would flip over to WCW until they were gone.

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  102. Yeah, RVD's "I'm gonna work 90 days at a time with extended breaks between" deal made no sense to me. You can never put a belt on him and you can't put him in any angles of real consequence, so why sign him at all?

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  103. Are they? Seems like every wrestling woman Punk dates either ends with him shit talking them after the fact or them giving very cold and impersonal "yeah, we dated, it's over" responses edited changing the topic.

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  104. Orton was an example I omitted from my article, but in early 2010 when Orton turned, I thought doing Austin/Hart with Orton as Austin and Cena as Hart. I'm borderline ashamed to admit it now but Orton was CRAZY over at the time.

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  105. If they really want to troll the crowd, while also building to something productive, HHH can pull Bryan out "for his own safety" and replace him with Lesnar.

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  106. It's easy to book too. Just have Vince come back and say that there are no more GM's and that there is going to be an election for the next WWF president. They could assemble some candidates that are generally liked by the fans that are retired guys (e.g. Bob Backlund, Ted DiBiase, etc.) and have an election on the WWE app or whatever platform. They did a similar election when Monsoon moved from "interim" to "permanent" WWF president in 1995 (I voted by mail!). Once they get a winner, it'd be easy to put together!

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  107. If Cena stays healthy and still wants in down the road, I think it happens. His popularity will wane, his merch sales will go down, and WWE will find a new, younger guy to take over as top face. It happened to Hogan and it will happen to Cena. And if he wants to capitalize on it at that point in time, whenever it may be, a heel turn will happen.

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  108. It's almost as if the Outlaws have some really powerful guy that they're buddies with.

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  109. You brilliant bastard. *begins montage of training to have tougher feelings. Scenes of him chopping wood, running in the snow, lifting rocks in the barn, climbing mountains, crumpling up a photo of happy face that reveals my face with a rockin' beard, indicating how long I've been training my feelings*

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  110. It still makes me laugh that they're absolutely not going to waver on this road to Orton/Batista at all whatsoever. It's going to be such a car wreck.

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  111. to be fair, I'm sure there were lots of people that didn't "get" the appeal of Austin, Rock or Hogan either.

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  112. True, but they didn't boo those guys out of the building either.

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  113. The HOF member had better be Your_Favourite_Loser`s virginity.


    An undefeated streak of that magnitude MUST be recognized!

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  114. Just got back from Rio... no spoilers here, though. Let's just say that Worst_in_the_World and I debuted as "The Ramblers" and did pretty well. It's almost impossible for either of us to get a point across without resorting to three paragraphs.



    Or maybe I can be teamed up with my polar opposite because wacky, mismatched tag teams...rule?

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  115. There was so much hype around RVD's return and he had such a hot start, but it only takes this company a few weeks to make nothing out of it.

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  116. Next week Bryan come on stage to ask triple H if he can take his contractual vacation next summer, will HHH agree ?

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  117. You say this as if they have a choice. Batista is here to promote a Disney movie. Not even Vince can outmaneuver the Mouse. My minions inform me that it would not be surprising if Disney is forcing Batista to be the all-conquering hero and champion to promote their movie.


    Hey, remember when Vince gave a darn about his product?

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  118. No, now it makes sense. They're no longer "World Wrestling Entertainment." They're now JUST "WWE." So it's okay to say "the WWE."

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  119. Wrestlemania: Where retirees and part-timers go to get paid! (Unless you're RVD, in which case Creative Has Nothing For You.)

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  120. and: it even works if the authority figure makes a "wrong" decision (for example: Survivor Series/Tuesday in Texas).

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  121. What I don't get is why they wanted to make Betty White poop.

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  122. What incredible landmark Cena moments will you be looking up on Youtube/WWE network in 10-15 years? I can think of a whole bunch for Hogan, Rock, Austin, Savage, but for Cena there isn't a whole lot off the top of my head.

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  123. "So Mr. Malloy, it seems the cat has been caught by the very person who was trying to catch him."

    No relevance really, just, you can never quote The Simpsons enough.

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  124. Only if we can get matching outfits that have a neverending string of words running down the back

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  125. That time the announcers kept saying the odds were against him and he couldn't possibly win but he won anyway!

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  126. The problem is you're not Cena's demographic. You're not even the WWE's demographic. You don't like 90 percent of RAW I'm sure because honestly who does on these boards? I find it funny that everyone here hates the product so much (and they do lets not try and spin it) yet they watch and follow it every week because they are THAT addicted to it that they are willing to waste even thirty minutes of their life on perpetual fast forward or reading results instead of just saying "this is no longer catering to me and I'm going to find a new hobby that interests me". Which is my point you're not the WWE's target demographic they couldn't care less if you watch the product. If people like you or me truly spent money on pro wrestling then John Cena wouldn't be on top. Instead though we don't buy the t shirts (People will say they suck but the truth is nobody wants to buy any wrestling t shirt because its not "in" anymore). The reason John Cena is on top is because his shit sells. If ratings didn't go down when he wasn't around, if he wasn't the top draw on the house show market and if he didn't sell more merchandise than anyone else in the company he wouldn't be on top.


    You don't look at him as the "top guy" or "one of the best ever" because you're not meant to. If Hogan debuted today you wouldn't look at him as a "top guy" either because he's not what you're looking for out of your pro wrestling.


    He is by far the most popular wrestler today. He is the face of the WWE in the exact same way Austin and Hogan were. I think John Cena could deliver Christ in the middle of the ring and guys from about 21-40 would still boo him. You're not booing him you're booing the character he plays within this timeline. You wouldn't cheer Austin in this timeline either because he wouldn't be "Stone Cold". I pointed out earlier everything that made Austin great would never happen in this era. He wouldn't be drinking beer, cursing, flipping the bird and he wouldn't be beating on his "boss" because his "boss" would be Triple H and he doesn't show ass like Vince did.


    The point is you don't view Cena as a top guy because you don't like the product but if you LIKE this product (like the kids that buy his merchadise) he is exactly that. He's your Hogan, he's your Austin.


    You're saying anyone could have gotten the Cena push and had the same results. I'm saying thats like saying anybody could have gotten the Austin 3:16 push or the Hogan push. It doesn't work like that. You don't get what Cena has by just being pushed by the company. Triple H has been pushed good and bad for 15 years and NEVER gotten the love/hate that Cena has. John Cena is the PG era's Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin because he's without a doubt the top guy of his era. If you were building a pro wrestler you would build John Cena if your name is Vince McMahon that is.


    He's got the perfect body, he's good looking, he's charming, he's got charisma, he's more than capable of pulling off the big match, he's squeeky clean, he's the perfect PR guy as the face of a company, he comes from a good background, etc. This guy is Vince McMahon's perfect pro wrestler and when the guy that essentially recreated the way we view pro wrestling says that somebody IS pro wrestling I'm going to take his word for it since if it weren't for that guy none of us would be posting on this blog.

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  127. I don't think that's the case. Maria still speaks highly of him, and his ex-girlfriend was featured on his DVD as well. Didn't he also have a fling with Mickie? Because she seems to be fine with him as well. Not sure how things are with him and Beth but clearly things were fine enough for them to continue working together for several months.

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  128. Fantastic post.

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  129. The only memorable Cena moments for me have been promos in which is opponents called him out for being a phony, parody, etc. Namely 2011 with Punk and 2013 with Bryan.


    A big part of that is because I did not watch WWE between 2006 and 2011, however the main reason I did not watch is that Cena and Orton on top bored me.


    I think Cena's a fine wrestler in big matches with a good opponent, and I am compelled by his promo work, but his main draw for me at this point is waiting for his popularity to dwindle and for him to begin dropping hints at a future heel turn. If that ever happens, I will gladly boo the shit out of him because I think he will make a fantastic top heel.

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  130. Well, one of the Bellas will be beating AJ for the belt. Another WrestleMania match to boo!

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  131. Honestly every single one of his title wins/championship reigns just blend together into one amorphous blob for me.

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  132. Sadly, it's going to take a BAD injury for this company to reassess how it handles the divas division.

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  133. Buncha dorks, having a bit of fun.


    I miss the OLD days when dorks were all joyless!

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  134. Well he had to win some of them while he was hurt - you can tell which ones those are because after the match he holds his arm for a couple of seconds.

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  135. In other news, Steve Stennick must be John Cena's personal biographer or something. My god that's a lot of paragraphs.

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  136. Expect that night to have a TON of Network ads since it launches live content that day.

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  137. I think the Network will change WWE's target demographic. Who buys subscription video services? Young adults with money to burn. Who is most likely to drop $10/month on WWE? The core pro-wrestling fanbase. They will have less of a reason to chase down as many casual fans as they can. They probably still will to some degree, but there will also be a larger impetus on making the other fans happy -- you know, the ones that go to shows and shit on the current, mainstream pandering product.

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  138. I've said it on here before - once we get 5 or so years distance from Cena, he will be remembered as an absolute, 100%, bonafide legend to anyone with half a brain. He's stale as hell, sure, but he has had some insanely great matches. His match from 23 against HBK will stand up well in 15 years, for example.

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  139. Random tidbit, but if they keep this HOF thing going they are going to have some problems in the future. Can you imagine the crowd hijacking an Orton or Bellas induction?

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  140. Crowd during Orton's speech, "Where's the gym bag?"

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  141. The issue is, more times than not, they split up a tag team and do nothing with them....and often, both guys are in a worse spot than they were when they were teaming. Like the Hart Dynasty. Or, more recently, Tons of Funk. And after a heel turn a week or so ago, Titus wasn't even on TV or mentioned this week. If you're going to break someone up to push them hard....fine. But that's rarely what we see.

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  142. Love this idea. Similar idea, maybe most would disagree, but do the same beatdown, and at its peak the lights go down, and when they come back up Taker is there to even the odds and help clear the ring. I mention this because of how it seems Punk gained Taker's respect backstage, and it's a nod to last year when he teamed with Bryan and Kane, and if memory serves correct, allowed Bryan to give him a (reluctant) hug.

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  143. It was said to be "self defense".

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  144. I think Cena's a lot nearer to the end of his run as a permanent tip-top guy than anyone realizes. The fact that he's aged so well (seriously the guy looks the same facially and physically as he did 10 years ago) hides how many miles he's put on his body. He's been the #1 star for 10 years and worked the full schedule for all of his time on top. Even now he has to work the house shows otherwise people don't show up.

    He's had semi-serious injury issues the past couple years and they rushed him back both times well ahead of schedule. This can't be good for him.

    I would imagine within a couple years he's going to be pulled back to the Undertaker/HBK schedule where he gets a few months off a year and eventually gets scaled back to being a special attraction. If they can afford to do it.

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  145. I think quite a few people are very honest about not liking Hogan. I was too young for that era anyway but I'm very confident in saying my WWF 80's favorites would have been Savage and Piper.

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  146. Rock was absolutely being booed out of the building by 2002. The difference was he wasn't sticking around long-term and knew it by that point, so he had no problem turning heel.

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  147. She has no charisma because here character is an emotionless hit woman/ bodyguard for AJ. She has been improving because she's been using more of a male move set. Have her win the belt and go kill some divas for the next few months till Naomi is well enough to return.

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  148. Him returning at the Rumble way ahead of schedule from injury.
    All his matches against Punk since 2011 (they've had 4-5 matches, all were different and outside of the Raw 1000, all were well beyond good and into great. I have at least 2 of them being ***** matches although that's just me)
    Cena/HHH at Wrestlemania (really liked that match and the intros, the whole package)

    1st match against the Rock. The fact that the 2nd one sucked kills the mystique of the 1st one but it was great.
    Cena/Edge had 2 or 3 really good matches
    Cena/HBK
    Cena/Bryan from Summerslam this year
    Cena/RVD at ONS


    That's just off the top of my head in 2 minutes. He's had a lot of fantastic moments and great matches, they just get pushed aside because the mind remembers the neverending Orton feuds, the duds vs. Miz and the "monster of the month he has to beat the odds against" stuff that he got saddled with.

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  149. Yeah, they could have made money with Matt Cross.

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  150. Why don't you actually watch raw? Do you not have cable or something? Legit curious.

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  151. Rio?!?!? Always wanted to go. Business or play?

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  152. I personnaly blame you for this

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  153. Bear in mind, I agree with most of what you said, but here's where we differ:

    1. Anyone who watches WWE is in WWE's demographic

    2. If you're referring to their "target demographic" as the kiddies, then you should know WWE is way off target because most statistics show their average and median age for the product normally hovers around the late 30s, early 40s. They still routinely win cable's 18-49 male demographic as well. Between that, the DVD sets they sell, and the Network, it's clear they mean to cater to a wide age range of people.

    3. Cena has not been clean his entire career. We can point to the circumstantial evidence (pictures as the Prototype or his miraculous recovery times from major surgeries) or to some of the boys and employees who have been on record as of seeing not-so-legal stuff in his bag.

    4. He'll always be the poor man's Rock or poor man's Hogan. He'll be a top guy* "for his era" but not necessarily top guy, period. He's more like Flair or Piper in terms of Q rating. But that's my opinion.

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  154. The official anthem of Wrestlemania XXXIV will be "Party Rock Anthem".

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  155. I will be your partner.

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  156. Agree with you Jason. Cena just is not the star that the Big Three were. Part of the the era. The 80s and late 90s were hot peroids for wrestling with star power down the card. Today, it's just Cena and? None of the guys today are at the level of a Savage, Undertaker or Foley. If Cena had more stars around him it would make him seem bigger. But he doesn't. Punk and Bryant are not anywhere close to the level that Savage, Taker or Foley reached.
    Personally Cena doesn't do much for me. I only watch when I hear of something interesting going on like this whole Bryant thing. Otherwise there is no one I really care about. No good angles to enjoy. I find Cena and HHH to be boring. Not sure why Cena is so popular. I stopped watching full time just has he started to take off.

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  157. You 2 have a match at the BoD EC PPV.

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  158. Continuously raped his stepdaughter

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  159. The fact that he wasn't sticking around is WHY he was getting booed out of the building in 2002.

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  160. I agree that he might be close to doing the part-time schedule, but as far as his injuries go, he wouldn't come back if he didn't want to.

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  161. Who would of thought that of Stone Cold, The Rock, Triple H, and Taker, The Rock would look the 'oldest'. Seriously he looks like George Takei.

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  162. I actually don't think they can change it. I think it's safe to assume that Batista main eventing (and possibly winning) Wrestlemania was part of the contract he signed, they are just in damage control right now.

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  163. Because of Cesaro. They split them up, nobody will care about Swagger. Dutch Mantell's a good talker and has a great mind for the business, and Swagger's always been a decent worker, but the uber-conservative gimmick was going nowhere until Cesaro joined the team, because now they're hypocrites, which made them better heels.

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  164. BoD BattleBowl?

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  165. Bea Arthur died? When did Bea Arthur die?

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  166. A Disney movie he is not even the star of that doesn't come out until AUGUST.

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  167. Does this mean we are going to get a second Old School Raw?

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  168. He doesn't nor does he look the oldest.

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  169. Yeah but typically when the fans suddenly start booing a face it's a hint that's normally taken. Cena's been being booed since 2005 and they just ignore it. The top face isn't supposed to be "polarizing" and I'd be interested in seeing how the crunch the numbers to figure out that they're better off with a guy half the crowd hates than a guy a little more universally popular. I know kids eat up his merchandise but nobody past 20's wearing John Cena gear. Couldn't get they someone who appears to a broader audience?

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  170. Well said. The "WWE markets to kiddies" thing is way overblown, bordering on almost entirely incorrect. Returning to a style that's kid-friendly is 1)different than totally changing their target demographic and 2)much closer to the norm over their history, anyway. There's a reason the Attitude Era stands out so much: it was the only era that was decidedly less than kid-friendly.

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  171. Didn't the Outlaws spend all their time in TNA bashing Triple H and Vince pretty handily on screen and also in non-televised publications? Just because they were stablemates with Triple H for, what, 3 years, doesn't mean they are all best friends in real life.


    Yes, I know Road Dogg has been working for the company for some time now in a non-wrestling capacity, and I think Gunn is also a trainer, too, but I think people are panicking a little too much on them being the champs.

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  172. This is why I don't want the Shield to break up, there is so much more mileage out of the gimmick and Reigns could easily be a megaface as part of a stable, it would just mean the same for the other two, but it could work.

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  173. Smarts used to live shitting on his matches but we could probably name at least 20 4.25 star matches he's been in. I'll start...Cena/Punk MITB 11

    Also, I love his surprise rumble entrance just because it caught everyone by aurprise. Even the jaded smarts marked out. In a bubble I think everyone would tell you they like/respect Cena to a certain level

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  174. He cut his cable months ago and now watches only through Hulu.

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  175. True. It was, in a way, both cause and effect.

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  176. The Real Americans have been "building momentum" for a while now. Stale is not the word for them. Especially now with Colter bringing his signs to the ring, I'm loving them more and more, and with the crowd reactions last night, so is the audience.

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  177. This is amazing, which means WWE wouldn't do it.

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  178. That's not what I meant. If they want to have hot women in somewhat revealing clothes on their show, then God bless them. I like looking at hot women in revealing clothes. But let's not pretend that the WWE hires these women based on wrestling ability.

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  179. This is what I've been saying for weeks now

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  180. I called the Roman Reigns will be the bigger star out of the 3 shield members. Unfornately, I didn't do it here so I have no proof.

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  181. They're supposed to be out-of-touch business types. So them wanting to "please the masses" is part of the character. I sort of get that. But the inconsistent part comes from how other characters interact with them. At least Triple H was being a smiling, smarmy dick to the Big Show last night, as opposed to hugging him like he did to the returning Batista.

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  182. I'm nearing 30 and I don't spend money on wrestling because I don't enjoy the product. I'll spend money on all sorts of useless shit so I'm not opposed to it I just don't find much about the product worth parting with my money over and the stuff I do like tends to get buried to make sure it remains below the stuff I don't like....but give me something I like, like the Network, and I'm counting down the days until I can give them my money.


    Give me stories I can invest in and characters I like and I'll spend money. But there's a but of a chicken/egg scenario here where I don't spend money on wrestling because I don't enjoy it and then get told they won't cater to me because I don't spend money on wrestling.

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  183. I think Rock still looks pretty good. Undertaker looks pretty bad with his hair the way it is. I say he has the "looks oldest" thing by a mile.

    HHH going to short hair was a pretty damn good decision on that front also. He dropped 5-10 years just by buzzing his head.

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  184. The promos will happen soon.

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  185. Rock was weird because as popular as he was the fans did turn on him quite a bit. They could be rabidly cheering him but if he looked at Austin the wrong way they turned on him, and even guys like Jericho and RVD had gotten near 50/50 reactions against him.

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  186. Sodas RULE!

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  187. For the movie that comes out in August? Marvel/Disney won't push GotG until after the new Cap comes out and then leaves theaters. We're talking May at the earliest.

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  188. That's a good point, and example with Jericho. In late 2001 before Jericho really turned, the crowd was definitely on his side early on.

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  189. Except Betty White has been more popular in mainstream culture in the past 3 years than she has been since the Golden Girls were actually on the air, so that's not that funny.

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  190. Probably not. I think anyone they put in that role would eventually be turned on by the crowd because there are so many hours of programming these days.


    Cena's the first and only guy so far in the era of monthly PPVs and four-plus hours of primetime weekly TV to stick around for more than two or three years as The Man. Austin was out for all of 2000, then stuck around full-time less than two more years after he came back. Rock was done as a full-timer by the middle of 2002.


    Mixed crowd reactions have never correlated to poor business for Cena, and in fact arguably help it.

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  191. Just say you did really convincingly.

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  192. Perfect time to turn Batista into Hollywood Dave?

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  193. Addiction is so funny

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  194. I joked in the Raw thread about what the chance of a diva being killed in the ring might be this year.

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  195. I still think the initials WWE are stupid.

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