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Kafabermetrics on HHH buying people


Maybe an interesting read for the Heavenly BOD-ies:
http://www.kayfabermetrics.com/does-triple-h-bury-people-the-numbers-say-no/
I think this comment section on this one could get rowdy.

Jesus fuck, are there actually people trying to do this sabermetrics bullshit with WRESTLING?  I can understand sucking the fun out of baseball because it's all based on stats and percentages as a part of the game, but wrestling is a WORKED SPORT.  The mind boggles.  

Comments

  1. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryMarch 26, 2014 at 9:13 PM

    Hey now, you've stopped following baseball since Delgado left Toronto, you're in no position to talk about how awesome or not awesome sabermetrics are.


    Which by the way: TOTALLY FUCKING AWESOME.

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  2. Dude...the fun of baseball is the math! Unfollow.

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  3. How many stars has Triple H created? How many stars have looked worse after feuding with Triple H?


    Bingo.

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  4. I knew HHH married into money but I didn't know he's so rich that he's now BUYING people like The Million Dollar Man. Everybody has a price!

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  5. Really? I'm all for over analyzing wrestling but this just seems too far.

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  6. Greatest Triple H moment when he celebrated with London and Kendrick, shrugged his shoulders and gave them both Pedigrees.

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  7. Your_Favourite_LoserMarch 26, 2014 at 9:24 PM

    "The mind boggles."

    up next, sabretoothmetrics on Boggle!

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  8. Your_Favourite_LoserMarch 26, 2014 at 9:25 PM

    "owen hart: no comment"

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  9. Sabermetrics "sucked the fun out of baseball"? That's ridiculous, it gave us (http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/03/12/bugs-bunny-greatest-banned-player-ever/) a detailed and hilarious analysis of the baseball career of Bugs Bunny.

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  10. That one was legendary.

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  11. I honestly think Batista is the only star that Triple H created. I can't think of any other up and coming wrestler who Triple H had a lengthy feud with that came out looking better than Hunter did.

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  12. That was a very sad day for me. I started watching wrestling in 1988, and living in North Carolina, the NWA (and later WCW) was the big thing. I watched WWF, World Class, etc., but nothing connected with me like the NWA. Even through the sorry years in the early 90s, and the collapse in the late 90s, I stuck by them.

    To see the company fold, and on top of that, be bought by Vince McMahon of all people....it was just sad. Wrestling has never been the same for me since WCW folded. Sure, I watch WWE, and watched TNA for a long time, but I've probably spent more time since 2001 watching old footage of the territory days than I have watching WWE.

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  13. Watched Scooby Doo Wrestlemania Mystery. Was shocked to see a scene where the villain gets to beat on HHH a bit. Couldn't believe WWE let that happen. Remember, this is the company that wouldn't allow video game reviews to publish screen shots of HHH in any vulnerable state.

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  14. "It's sad that a company that lost several hundred million dollars in just a few short years went for so cheap."


    Fixed it for ya

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  15. Chris Benoit

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  16. Not to mention replays showing John Cena eliminating Carlito or Shelton Benjamin instead of Triple H to win the 2008 Royal Rumble.

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  17. I still say those numbers can't be real. I'm not saying they didn't lose money and a hell of a lot of it, but $80 Million in 2000?


    How?


    Kevin Nash in an interview once said things like ppv revenue and home video sales went into Time Warners coffers but didn't count as official WCW revenue and that's one of the reasons why the numbers were so absurdly in the red. Now that's Kevin talking so take it with a healthy amount of salt!

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  18. Anyone know if WWE has an analytics department which tries to use data to determine things like pushes, presentation, content, etc.? With the network, they must be collecting a ton of data from users: what they're watching, what they're fast forwarding, who they're searching for, etc. It would be ridiculous to ignore that data in favor of some non-specific metric like Nielsen ratings or PPV buys.

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  19. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryMarch 26, 2014 at 9:57 PM

    I really wish someone would've hacked WWE.com and posted SVR07 footage of Viscera giving the HHH the Visagra on an endless loop.

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  20. unfortunately I bet a lot of that data leads toward Triple H, John Cena, Taker, Kevin Nash, and Hulk Hogan. So we probably want them to ignore it.

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  21. HHH created Batista. That's one more star than most big-name wrestlers (e.g. HBK, Austin, 'Taker, all of whom have made other guys look good but never made anyone) "create".

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  22. Do we seriously not think that Cena bearing Triple H at WrestleMania 22 didn't help make him look legit? I know he was already on his way, but that win was something important, no?

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  23. I said in the live thread I would take Schiavone over the clowns we have announcing Raw now any day.

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  24. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 26, 2014 at 10:08 PM

    That final Flair/Sting match was so paint by numbers it was ridiculous.

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  25. I expect this to be a controversial (for lack of a better word) answer, but I'd say that Jericho's on-and-off 2000 feud with Trips made him look better than he did beforehand, even though he lost the feud.

    Actually, come to think of it, I'd argue that post-HHH Angle looked better (again, in 2000) than he did before they crossed paths. Now would going over Trips at Unforgiven have made him look better? Obviously. But even with him losing their match like a dork, I think that entire feud helped him more than it hindered him.

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  26. "Remember, this is the company that wouldn't allow video game reviews to publish screen shots of HHH in any vulnerable state."

    Is this a serious statement? If so, please elaborate. I've never heard this

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  27. A few years ago (I think it may have been 2008), there was a report that the guys who make the WWE video games were given a memo not to show Trips in a vulnerable position in the marketing.

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  28. Jesus, that makes me feel old. Thirteen years? Really?

    WCW has been dead longer than it was in existence (Turner years).

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  29. Yeah, there does seem to have been a lot of "creative bookkeeping" going on. It was the pre-Enron era, after all.


    It *was* still a huge money pit though, and as much as I loved WCW, I can't begrudge AOL-Time-Warner wanting to get rid of it. Business is business.

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  30. I used to *hate* him as a kid/teenager. Now when I watch old Nitros, I find myself wishing they'd get him to replace Cole.

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  31. That would be the greatest announcing change in the history of our sport!

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  32. I think it definitely helped cement Cena as the top guy (going into that match, there was a lot of doubt online about who was paging over), but I also think that feud rekindled some of the anti-Cena sentiment that the Cena/Edge feud had partially quelled.

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  33. Had to bring it up, didn't you? Idiot.

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  34. Yea. That one seems to always get overlooked.

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  35. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryMarch 26, 2014 at 10:17 PM

    Here's one of the sheets from back then

    http://www.wrestlescoop.com/2008/10/31/update-on-wwe-protecting-triple-hs-image-in-sdvr/

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  36. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryMarch 26, 2014 at 10:17 PM

    Well, yeah, it's because it's WM22, it's not like a lot of us distinctly remember it...

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  37. The H is 8-9 at WM. We can deconstruct that all we want but having a losing record on the biggest show of the year doesn't necessarily scream "burial"

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  38. This seems SO over the top I don't know if I believe it

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  39. Other than Trish-Mickie....

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  40. I'm generally a Trips defender, but I'll give the deconstruction a shot.

    Putting overs: WM 20, 21, 22
    Burials: WM 19, 25

    The rest fall inbetween. For example, while he lost to 'Taker thrice at the show, I don't know if it's really possible for anyone to give the Deadman a rub. Conversely, while HHH beat Sheamus at 26, I think Sheamus was too lukewarm (and the match too low-profile) for it to really count as a burial.

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  41. In order to "suck all the fun out of baseball", somebody would have to blow some fun in there first!

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  42. I've never been someone who pushes the "HHH buries everyone!" idea. I really have no idea what happens backstage. The article, however, is severely flawed by a few assumptions. #1, the assumption that the main complaint is HHH is attempting to bury everyone's careers, as opposed to the idea that HHH is trying to get himself over at the expense of someone who could use it more, which is what I think most people honestly believe, and #2, the assumption that it's only a "burial" if it's successful...i.e., if HHH actually was trying his hardest to completely bury someone but they overcame it and had a successful career, it doesn't count.


    If you remove those two assumptions, you remove the whole premise of the article. Someone having a better career after facing HHH at WM is meaningless if HHH's goal was to get himself over even if it's at their expense...that doesn't necessarily mean they'd have a worse career long term after, unless you're assuming that HHH is actually some evil vindictive guy who is actively trying to ruin careers whether he's facing them or not just because he can. And even if he was trying to do that, removing the assumption that it automatically succeeds invalidates it.

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  43. Other than Rocky and Punk, I don't know if any of HHH's perceived burial attempts have failed. And even the aforementioned two looked strong in defeat against him.

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  44. Agreed on Jericho, although it didn't "make" him. I think he absolutely looked better after because, even in a loss, HHH sold his ass off for Jericho and made him look great, but Jericho wasn't really made for awhile.



    Angle I disagree. I loved the HHH/Angle/Stephanie stuff, and I do think the angle as a whole helped Kurt, but I don't think Kurt was better off at the end of the feud than he was at, say, the midpoint of the feud, and I don't think HHH really did anything to help Kurt during that storyline. Rock did more to legitimize Kurt, I think, and later Austin.

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  45. I agree that most of them fall "in between." The only one I really have an issue with is WM 25, but that whole match was just weird.

    If the booking didn't have the racial undertones, I wouldn't have a big issue with 19. I get why they wanted to keep him strong and the Booker feud was pretty thrown together iirc. The build and the long pin sequence was worse than the actual results imo

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  46. I was 13 when that show aired. Still one of the surrealist things ever. I was just starting to read internet wrestling sites not long before the purchase and I remember going to them 32479283479 times per day to see the rumors of who the WWF was going to get from WCW. The whole week or so from when news broke that Vince bought WCW through WrestleMania was probably the best week as a fan (for me). Even though I'm from New York, I actually mostly watched Nitro from when it launched until about Tyson/Austin. I was completely out of the loop with WCW by the time they were sold but I was still excited for the dream matches like Goldberg/Austin, Sting/Undertaker, nWo vs. DX and all the other stuff we wound up never getting.


    It really was amazing how quickly things went from exciting to blah.

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  47. I guess what I mean is, you could look at someone like, say, RVD, and make the argument HHH buried him, but you could then turn around and say "Ah, but RVD beat Cena for the title years after, therefore, HHH never even attempted to bury him and no burial happened!". That's silly. Whether or not HHH tried to bury RVD (I don't think so, not in the way they're using burial in the article; I think he saw RVD getting over more, saw him go over others, and then beat him to help himself, not to destroy RVD because he had some grudge against RVD), Rob certainly didn't leave that feud in a better position at all. The fact that years later he rebuilt himself and won the title doesn't change that.

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  48. Oh, I don't think that those feuds made either guy, just made them look better than they did beforehand, in response to what Mar Solo said.

    As for HHH/Angle, again, I meant that Kurt looked better after it was all said and done than he did before. I agree that he was at his hottest when the feud as a whole was at its hottest, during the buildup.

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  49. Serious question since I (thankfully) don't remember 2002 RAW very well. What was RVD doing before the WHC feud with HHH?

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  50. I'm torn on 25 too, because Orton looked absolutely awful coming out of that match, but I don't know if that was HHH or if that was whoever came up with the way that match would play out (whether it was HHH or a road agent or someone else). That match was set up really poorly. A lose the title DQ stip in a match begging for No DQ? Hit the finishers immediately to slow the match to a crawl within seconds? End the match with HHH literally punching Orton for 30 seconds and then casually pedigreeing him? Really bad.


    I also agree on Booker. Booker actually didn't look too bad for most of the match...hell, HHH practically had to be carried out of the arena. The problem was the long pin and, moreso, the build.

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  51. Yeah, but again, I'm not sure how much that was HHH. With Jericho, Jericho was directly feuding with him including the phantom title win on Raw. Angle and HHH, I don't really recall them interacting much (it was more Angle and Stephanie interacting and the audience going "Ooooooohhhhhh!" with HHH occasionally reacting) until the build to their match, and at that point I don't think it helped Kurt. The end certainly didn't, I don't think. I do agree on Jericho though.

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  52. Even if the logical end of the story was (arguably) the babyface triumphing, I really think that winning at WM 25 would've been pivotal for Orton since that was the absolute hottest he's ever been, and he isn't charismatic enough to rebuild himself. So for me, that match both sucked in general, and had the wrong result.

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  53. Winning every title except for the WHC. My recollection is they were having RVD unify all the secondary titles (IC, Hardcore, maybe European, I forget), and the idea was it would be Raw's "world title". Then they gave HHH the WHC, and so Rob promptly dropped the IC title to someone and then got beat by HHH.

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  54. My memory'is a bit hazy, but wasn't there a great segment where HHH implied Angle was gay and him and Foley made fun of Angle for crying after winning at the Olympics? For me, that was the high point of the buildup.

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  55. I see. But RVD is a guy I think you can say HHH successfully "buried", unlike Punk and Rocky who weren't really hurt by losing to him.

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  56. The HHH and Foley segment happened a few weeks after No Mercy actually. On the night he restarted his feud with Austin/

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  57. My issue with the "burial" argument is that people assume that person X would have gone on to be a star if they didn't feud with HHH. It's very presumptive.

    Like would RVD really have done alot more then he did if he went over HHH that 1 time? Who knows but assuming he was this huge start that career would be 100x better if he went over HHH just seems wrong

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  58. I really lost touch with WCW around 1999. I know I followed along with online news sites (I think I've been visiting LOP for about 15 years or more now, have they been around that long?) right up to the end, but I remember almost nothing from the final two years. I'll have to watch some of the pay per views on the Network.

    But the last night of Nitro was still so weird to me, a year away from graduating from college. I started watching wrestling with the WWF, but I always checked out whatever was on - WWF, NWA/WCW, Global, AWA, ECW, Wold Class, USWA, all available on cable in the New York City market at various points when I was a kid.



    All of a sudden, everything was gone. ECW folded, WCW folded and that was it. All the promotions I used to watch as a kid had been somewhat swallowed by WWF (will they ever buy the Global rights? I loved that as a kid).


    Thirteen years later, it's still not the same.

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  59. Did Schiavone even get an offer from Vince when WCW folded? Or did he just walk away?

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  60. Nah, just looked up some old RAW results, and the segment I'm thinking of happened on the September 18 go-home episode before Unforgiven.

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  61. HBK helped make Austin. He put the last screw into the machine that Bret started building.


    Taker made Kane and Foley.


    Austin definitely helped put Angle over finally as a legit main event guy in 2001.

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  62. Oh yeah, you're right. I was thinking of the other segment where they made fun of his snot and stuff during his celebration.

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  63. There's a difference between helping someone and "creating" them. Foley made a bunch of guys. HBK (unlike HHH) never made anyone, though like you say he helped Austin (and a bunch of guys in his second run too).

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  64. I'd disagree that hbk made Austin. If you remember the feud was essentially the Austin/Tyson hoopla amd the fact that Austin was gonna win the title. It had very little to do with HBK imo

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  65. The only kind of metrics that get sympy from me are Steiner-metrics. See, everybody knows, wants to know, that gettin’ in the ring with HHH you got a 50/50 chance of winnin'. But I, I got a 66 2/3 chance of winning, cause HHH KNOWS he can't beat me, and he's not even gonna try! So, you take his 33 1/3 chance, minus my 66 2/3 percent chance, and you got a minus 33 1/3 chance of not getting buried.

    Hah!

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  66. Tony before he became "Greatest night in the history of our sport" man, was an underrated announcer, who would call matches and offer historical insight as well.

    For example, Scott's review of Starrcade '95 makes mention of how Tony, during the Triangle match with Sting, Luger and Flair, brings up the last time Sting and Luger were opponents (Superbrawl 2).

    Then, the nWo took over and it all went away.

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  67. He was born into money - he was The Connecticut Blueblood after all!

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  68. Is it? I don't think it's that crazy, brother.

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  69. it's overlooked because while he was putting over Cena, many felt he was kind-of "burying" Edge because it felt like he was robbed of his first huge WrestleMania match just so Triple H could main event. in hindsight it obviously all worked out for Edge anyway.

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  70. why? WrestleMania 22 was a really good show.

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  71. I didn't think Austin would win against Michaels until it happened. because after Montreal, I really bought into the whole "the Heartbreak Kid lays down for absolutely nobody" thing and thought that Michaels would find a way to weasel out and lose the belt without "really" getting beaten.

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  72. XIX - BOOKER T - VERDICT: NOT BURIED.

    uhm...

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  73. Uh, this article sucks.

    /Butthead

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  74. Haha, I forgot about how successful Curtis Axel was after getting beat up by a concussed Triple H for 5 minutes and then having the match stopped.

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  75. This is the kind of thing that makes me think we need the return of storyline magazines and websites. This kind of stuff never happened when Stu Saks was on the job.

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  76. I watched the HHH documentary on Netflix last night... by FAR the worst one of their I have ever seen... he had everyone from Kill Kowalski on down do nothing but kiss his ass and the only thing he ever admitted any kind of weakness in was the Wrestlemania main event with Orton... other than that he was perfect. Always. Ever. Total fluff piece.

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  77. That article was fucking stupid

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  78. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:29 AM

    ...what in thee fuck?!?!?!

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  79. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:29 AM

    ...what in theee fuck?!?!

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  80. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:38 AM

    I think he tried to follow the model Flair used in JCP when he worked with certain wrestlers in feud (Morton, Garvin) The difference is the wrestlers Flair worked with were normally better off after he worked with them and (yes, I'm going to say it) because they had strong secondary champions these wrestlers could slide into one of these spots afterwards and be a believable contender to that. ("If he could push the WORLD Champion to the limit, imagine what he could do the US/TV/Regional champ."). It doesn't help that except for a few key people once you're done working with HHH they usually have nothing productive for you. It's like the booking committee is only concentrating on 2 -3 people chasing World title and everyone else is an afterthought.
    Now HHH has the stigma of, "Great [X] is gonna work with HHH he gonna get buried and thrown into sea of obscurity.

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  81. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:40 AM

    It could also be that not too many people thought RVD had a chance of beating HHH to begin with. He was never made to look like a threat in that feud which is another issue with HHH. Batista looked like a million bucks after working with him.

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  82. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:41 AM

    If I'm not mistaken HHH beat whoever was the "unified" secondary champion and consolidated it into the belt Flair gave him.

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  83. VINCE! PUT THE STEINERS IS THE FUCKING HOF

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  84. I agree that the 25 win over Orton was completely ridiculous.
    First of all, the booking kind of made me uncomfortable. I had no reason to feel compassion for any of the McMahons. And Orton was doing so awesome at his heel act, I was cheering for him anyway.
    Sure, he got the title at the next PPV and did pin HHH, but it was that goofy six man tag. Rock-HHH Backlash it wasn't.

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  85. I wasn't watching when Wrestlemania 19 occurred. I understand that Booker T looked like a loser after the loss, but were the fans buying as a legitimate champion should he have won?

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  86. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:45 AM

    Like I said before the assumption is that they had something planned for the person after the feud. The follow up should have been that RVD was a guy that gave HHH a run for his money and you put in a feud with a guy that wants to make a name for himself by beating HIM.

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  87. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:46 AM

    That Scott Steiner speech would be classic,

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  88. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:46 AM

    Yes. They were.

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  89. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:48 AM

    I just took the time to read this article and I agree.

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  90. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 6:51 AM

    First Taker/HHH match got both over. Second one (with the ending that should have been given to Cena/Lesnar) the got over HHH more than Taker. (which is what the streak should do)
    The third one was an unnecessary dick-waving contest.

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  91. The worst is when legends like arn Anderson and Ricky steamboat do their hall of fame speeches or talking head spots and HAVE to mention and laud him like he traveled back in time to influence their careers.

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  92. So....where was Benoit, Batista, Cena, and Taker on that chart?

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  93. If only he bought TNA.

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  94. Oh right, they weren't "buried"

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  95. Or even Henry and Chavo.

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  96. Yeah, losing you're title only to have a great hardcore match with Foley and winning seems like such a burial.

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  97. "Legacy Push Points" has to be the nerdiest wrestling-related thing I have ever read in my life.

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  98. Bring back Eddie Ellner or Liz Hunter. What about Andy Rodriguez? Damn, I miss the old Apter mags. Got hundreds of them in totes in the basement from about 80 to 97 or so. They were so cool before the 'net seeing guys you never see in your area, a great way to follow the territories, another thing I miss in wrestling.

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  99. The only thing I remember from that feud is RVD mocking HHH's water-spitting entrance. Oh, and Flair turning on Van Dam in a *shocking* swerve.

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  100. And we all know Daniel Bryan is the only time traveler in WWE

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  101. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 8:58 AM

    Benoit got buried later.
    Too soon?

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  102. You really shouldn't have said that Jef! You KNOW he was cremated!

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  103. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 8:59 AM

    Yeah. HHH is like a serial killer. He makes his opponent look insignificant before killing them.

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  104. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonMarch 27, 2014 at 9:01 AM

    Well if he wasn't burning before, he most certainly is now.

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  105. Sabermetrics are very annoying, and I really love stats... but when a guy wins the triple crown for the first time in decades and there is still discussion if he deserves MVP or not because of some Sabermetrics stat they have gotten out of hand.

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  106. I go back and forth on them. They have a place but when people go 100% saber metrics, to quantify things, it's annoyning.

    Here's the thing, if Trout had a better WAR stat then Cabrera, isn't that a more indicative stat than RBIs and HRS when it comes to being "valuable."

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  107. "FAT ASSES!"

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  108. "If the baseball world is to accept this new system of analyzing the game—and eventually it will—it must first give up preconceived ideas. I had to. The formula outrages certain standard that experienced baseball people have sworn by all their lives. Runs batted in? A misleading figure.
    Strikeouts? I always rated them highly as a determining force in pitching.
    I do now. But new facts convince me that I have overrated their importance in so far as game importance is concerned. Even batting average must be reexamined... As a statistic, RBIs were not only
    misleading but dishonest. They depended on managerial control, a hitter's position in the batting order, park dimensions and the success of his teammates in getting on base ahead of him"


    Branch Rickey, 1954.

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  109. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryMarch 27, 2014 at 2:10 PM

    Trout being a more deserving guy in 2012 has nothing to do with metrics. His offensive numbers were astounding as well but he edges Miggy because of what else he brings. Miggy can only beat you with his bat; Trout beats you with his speed ( not just stealing 30+ bags, but taking extra bases on hits, first to third, second to home), his arm, and his glove. The next fallacy is that Detroit made the playoffs and Anaheim didn't; the Angels had the worst record in the AL before Trouts callup at the end of April and the best record after, so theres your most valuable argument (also made his teammates better; scope Pujols numbers before and after Trout that year). Finally, the fallacy of a player winning a Triple Crown MUST win the MVP; prior TC winners also didnt win MVPs either, so its not an auto hand in hand.

    Truth is, you can use traditional stats, records, and precendent to easily show that Mike Trout was more deserving than Miggy in 2012.

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  110. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryMarch 27, 2014 at 2:12 PM

    Yeah. He was neck and neck with HBK as the most over face on RAW and wouldve been a major player with a win.

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  111. Did he go on to win the title or was his career killed off completely?

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  112. Uh...really? Tell it to Jeff freaking Harvey

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  113. Id say he helped make Benoit...

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