Scott,
I was just watching a "Legends of Wrestling" show where the topic was overachievers and underachievers. The panel proceeds to totally trash Lex Luger, portraying Luger as a total bust who never connected with any fan base. I mean, I never viewed Luger as a "Hogan" or "Flair" type player, but he was a solid main eventer for many years in both WCW and WWE, and I recall him being quite popular.
It seems like WWE has a revisionist history for everything. Maybe if they had given Luger a clean win over Yokozuna at SummerSlam '93 after an entire summer building him up with the whole "Lex Express" thing (rather than having him win by count-out, then celebrating like he just won the title), things could have been different for Luger during his WWE stint.
What say you?
Vince McMahon would have sold his children into white slavery to draw the ratings that Luger was getting on top of WCW in 1997, so yes, they're very full of shit. Luger made WCW some pretty serious coin during their hottest period and got a run with the belt by beating Hogan cleanly. Not to mention that he did business with Flair for nearly a year straight in 1988. Granted I've always been something of a Luger apologist, but they're clearly wrong here.
Didn't he give "shoot" style interviews without the mask on Raw in '97? To try and make him more human, like they did with Goldust and Mankind.
ReplyDeleteOh man here in Georgia (and other southern states I suppose, don't care enough to find out) we have a guy doing the Patriot gimmick and he's just about the worst wrestler I've EVER seen.
ReplyDeleteI think it's fair to say after the mid-90s Luger completely stopped caring and just worked for a paycheck. He pretty much admits this in his book. He was fine in the late 80s/early 90s though.
ReplyDeleteYou know what I wanted to see? Someone do the Patriot gimmick overseas as a heel character. I mean we've seen plenty of heel foreign characters in the U.S. Has there even been a U.S. wrestler do this?
ReplyDeleteI'd love for Kurt Angle's theme to play at Royal Rumble 2015, only for the Patriot to come out.
ReplyDeleteI almost kinda prefer The Patriot version of the now-Angle theme; the bells in the background are really cool
ReplyDeleteAlso I must say I've always liked the "Dark" Patriot gimmick and wish it was used today in a good indy fed. If I was booking the character I'd have him be really dark and cut Bray Wyatt-ish promos.
ReplyDeleteWinning the belt on Monday and dropping it back on Saturday hardly qualifies as getting "a run with the title."
ReplyDeleteLuger was not a draw:
I'll concede he was super over in WCW from 95 to around 98 but yeah, he was never a proven money draw.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed The Patriot 4 month stint in the WWF. I was 9 and dug the whole look. I was actually quite bummed from his send off. IIRC, DX locked him in a casket and was never heard from again.
ReplyDeleteI believe the Patriot did the gimmick in All Japan in the mid-90s, but I've never seen how the crowds there reacted to it.
ReplyDeleteYouTube videos or it didn't happen.
ReplyDeleteDoes Georgia have any good indies? The most famous indy in Tennessee is SAW and it's terrible.
ReplyDeleteI keep waiting for Brodus Clay's theme to play and Ernest Miller shows up.
ReplyDeleteIf they bring him back now for his blow off match with Ron Killings, there'd be some formidable coin coming Vince's way.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of overachievers and underachievers, where does Rikishi land on that scale? I've been watching a lot of 1999-2001 WWF stuff on the Network, and a handful of times they brought Rikishi right up to the cusp of the main event scene -- he dominated in the 2000 Rumble, feuded with Austin and The Rock, made the 2000 KOTR finals, got a title shot against HHH on Smackdown -- but they never pulled the trigger by giving him the WWF title or having him headline a PPV (except for the 6-man Hell in a Cell match). Was Rikishi something of a disappointment when they did put him in those big spots, or did they never plan to make him a real tip-top guy?
ReplyDeleteFor what they probably expected of Rikishi, he was definitely an overacheiver. He was a fat guy in a thong who danced. And he got really over for about a year.
ReplyDeleteAfter the way WWE implied Lex was responsible for Miss Elizabeth's death on Confidential several years ago, nothing they say about him would surprise me.
ReplyDeleteI can see the Patriot thing working in early-AE WWF without a mask. Despite his flaws he seemed to draw a pretty big pop, but live reaction isn't necessarily indicator of drawing power.
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how much different the shows feel compared to now, and it's not just the look, obviously. I like the fast-paced wrestling show with more talking and backstage segments, shorter matches, and a wilder feel. The WWE needs to learn how to do that without bringing back the blood and embarrassing sexual content.
Hey what's wrong with that mask?!
ReplyDeleteI know WWF made a lot of money from the Austin/Foley feud so it'd be silly to change things, but at the time, I always believed Patroit was the perfect foil for Austin. Patriot respresented everything good, pure and American, so in Vince's outdated mind he should have been the perfect corporate Champion and it would be a neat spin that the whole face/heel thing has been reversed now with Austin now being the hero.
ReplyDeleteI just never got Vince hiring Foley in his war against Austin. I think it would have made more sense for Vince to hire someone like Patroit, then when he fails, Vince becomes more desperate so starts hiring the likes of Foley because at that point the feud woul have becme so personal that Vince doesn't care who the world champion is, so long as it isn't Austin.
Was this an old episode because I thought Luger has made up with the WWE now. Anyways, watching Luger become a star in WCW again when he jumped from WWF in '95 was pretty infuriating because Luger could have been that star for the WWF for the time he was there so long as they turned him heel.
ReplyDeleteI think Rikishi suffered from the same thing as Sid where both guys got main event pops at the height of their popuarity, but it didn't mean fans wanted to see them as main eventers.
ReplyDeleteI was a big fan of Rikishi until the heel turn, it was definitely mark days, but he was really cool and I wanted to see him have a chance with the title.
ReplyDeleteEspecially since he had already failed in the WWF before, nowadays it seems like if you blow a push in the WWE you don't get a true second chance (it's really encouraging to see them give Barrett another try), but Rikishi was a great repackaging.
ReplyDeleteI just hate that style of mask, it screams outdated wrestling trope to me. I think it's the nose and mouth holes, Lucha masks are way more open so it looks cooler, Kane's open mask was really cool, too, and of course Mankind and Vader's masks.
ReplyDeleteI never understood why they turned him heel. It's not like they were thin on heels at the time. And as I recall, his babyface character didn't seem stale (yet). Maybe they thought he'd be a 21st-century version of Yokozuna.
ReplyDeleteAnother one for the underachiever/overachiever argument: Billy Gunn. He's going to get into the Hall of Fame because of D-X and he won a bunch of tag titles with Road Dogg and Bart Gunn, but he flopped as a singles guy when it looked like he should have been a star.
ReplyDeleteI recall Vince calling him Del Wilkes a couple times selling the idea that he wore the mask so he represented every American. Cornette claimed the Hart Foundation hated him, and to be fair he was corny. That match with Bret was sweet, glorious music.
ReplyDeleteIt depends how you look at it.
ReplyDeleteFor someone with his body and look, being the least over member of multiple tag teams and stables and being in a gay angle is a huge underachievement. They repackaged him over and over to make him a main eventer and he couldn't do it.
But then on the other hand he's an overachiever. For someone with essentially zero charisma who never was responsible for a single great match (that I can remember) he put together a long career (that's still going to this day), made connections and made a whole lot of money.
Same could be said of Santino in the Elimination Chamber.
ReplyDeleteBryan made him look a million dollars and he got the pop of his life, but as much as i love Santino, i don't want to see him as WWE Champion.
Fair points.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like he's awful in the ring, quite a solid performer actually, but despite numerous gimmicks and characters, he'll always be remembered as one half of the New Age Outlaws.
The way i see it, McMahon realises he needs someone willing to do anything to stop Austin, even if it means destroying himself. Plus they have to be a bit gullible. Foley fits that description to a tee, someone who McMahon can manipulate into doing his bidding and has no concern for his own wellbeing.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to know who was on this panel, it's got to be some folks that had or still have heat with Luger. There are guys in the business now that'd give both arms to have Luger's career.
ReplyDeleteHe was not solid. Poorly conditioned, sloppy, bad at promos and low charisma - I remember that even Benoit couldn't get a decent singles match out of him.
ReplyDeleteDid corny blame the patriot on George bush like he usually does for everything? Or maybe it was Russo's fault again. Cornette would have preferred Kenny.bolin and the heavenly bodies against the foundation.
ReplyDeletePerfect description
ReplyDeleteThat was Russo's crash fast paced segment style. I enjoyed too
ReplyDeleteThey did cut away segment but yes, they did produce that style interview with his mask off in certain quick angles
ReplyDeleteThey only tried with fatu one last time because in 98 the Samoan family, including yokozuna and rikishi, were about to jump ship to wcw and Vince promised him a push. A year later he brings him back as a joke, seriously, the thong was an updated polka dot,, fatu was not supposed to get over so well, and the rest is history.
ReplyDelete88 and 89 nwa shows he headlined begs to differ
ReplyDeleteSo we're just gonna ignore the whole "he killed Ms. Elizabeth" thing?
ReplyDeleteI'd say he was an overachiever given his abilities, but an underachiever given his push.
ReplyDeleteThey pushed the FUCK out of him and gave him numerous tries to get over, but he always failed solo and it took them longer to give up than I would think imaginable.
Given that he was basically her partner-in-crime in using drugs, I can see where he'd take as much responsibility as anyone living.
ReplyDeleteAnd how did Luger draw money against Hogan?
ReplyDeleteBecause he was a bad ass. People always say WCW neutered the faces during the NWO period, but DDP, Luger, Sting and Goldberg were all presented as being ridiculously cool, ridiculously awesome faces who'd keep fighting no matter what and kick the NWO's ass when it mattered. Now granted this was for a year (DDP/Sting/Luger) and five months (Goldberg), but they were booked pretty rock-solid for a while.
And say what you will about Hogan, he built perfectly to the match with Sting. Luger kicked his ass, ensuring Hogan looked vulnerable, and then Hogan cheated to beat Luger. By beating the number two face that way, Hogan ensured he'd be beaten like a stepchild by Sting. Then he wasn't.
It is. BUT I think a hybrid could work. The Patriot first as a 'get this title on someone I like' attempt.Then go to Foley in desperation. As it stands they jump straight to Foley, which seems weird given - as mentioned - he's not a Vince McMahon guy.
ReplyDeleteCourse, I'm guessing Austin chose Foley (he was particular about who he fought) because a) they trusted each other, b) their styles were similar, c) Foley could take the bumps Austin couldn't and d) it'd cover up Austin's nerves re: his neck. He might not have wanted to take back bumps off Patriot's Patriot Slam etc.
But no one cared who he was until he put on the mask.
ReplyDeleteExcept for 1 million regulars a week.
ReplyDeleteI mean seriously... if the quality sucks, fine. But they have a consistent audience. And unlike ECW, they don't goad the network they're on constantly in a childish way.
I know this is a joke, but regardless - no.
ReplyDeleteNot fair to say at all - NWO would've run out of steam by the end of 1996 without Piper, Luger, Sting opposing them.
ReplyDeleteThere are many guys today who should wear a mask, like Dolph Ziggler or Great Khali. Just for security eye cancer reasons. ;-)
ReplyDelete"Is there anyone else
ReplyDeletewho has ever been more out of place at a certain time in wrestling?"
For example Bob Backlund in 94 or Ultimate Warrior in 96 or Tatanka in 2008(?).
Don't know if we can go that far. She was a grown woman and made her own choices.
ReplyDeleteLuger was such an outlier in JCP cause they really didn't hire bodybuilders. They aligned him with the horsemen to protect him and then put him in a ready made feud with Flair. Luger held up his end good enough but it was right place and right time. I think if he debuted in the WWF instead of JCP he would have been just another guy.
ReplyDeleteHe seems like a good enough guy but he makes everything about him. I know everyone loved him on commentary, but again it was all about him. He's a lot like Jimmy Fallon in that regard. He's entertaining enough but doesn't have the ability or desire to get anyone over but himself.
ReplyDeleteLuger gets trashed because they put THE MACHINE behind him and didnt get over.
ReplyDeleteIf the machine gets behind you and yku dont get over theres no hope.
Not saying luger wasnt a star he just came off as a phony in the wwf and the fans had already annointed their guy in Bret. so really lex was doa.
Ofc vince wont assume blame but its
1 part vince trying to force an all american superhero in lex luger (which sounds like lex luthor very subtle for americana to accept)
1 part the fans not accepting lex as the heir apparent
1 part lex not embracing the role he was given and sticking with it
I bet that Carter And Russo are going to give you so many kisses for white knighting for them on the internet. You are very noble and brave.
ReplyDeleteHe was programmed with flair... look at the biz he did in 91-92 for a fair deal
ReplyDeleteSuperbrawl saturday?!?!
ReplyDeleteToo tight tee shirt on a pole match
Maybe if they COULDN'T care less, the product would be better.
ReplyDeleteWow I didnt know that... im taking the rock was not apart of that deal.
ReplyDeleteAnd in that time have not come remotely close to WCW's success.
ReplyDeleteOne thing i hate about really over babyfaces that do a nonsensical turn... they dont change ANYTHING. If he would have changed his attire or his moveset he would have gotten over and the fans would have embraced it but iirc he didnt change the look or the work.
ReplyDeleteHe still the pop moves. I think he stoped dancing. Did he beat up too cool?
Al of them are old. Im think maybe that specific ep was made in 2012?
ReplyDeleteHe wont get in under dx. He will get in under the dx army banner.
ReplyDeleteIts not the same thing.
Mentioning Cracked and Caliber together... Cold.
ReplyDeleteIf you've seen Del Wilkes as the Trooper in the AWA, you'll know why that man needs a mask.
ReplyDeleteThat was a great idea and it could hav provided some sybolism abt where america was heading at the time... I don know if u brought this up... I just read like the first few sentences.
ReplyDelete2008 tatanka?!
ReplyDeleteI thought that was 06... either way I understand.
Or how about hogan wrestling in 2010?
He started wearing a leather jacket and leather pants when he went heel, but usually just for the "I'm not here to wrestle tonight" segments. They changed his music. I don't recall any interaction with Too Cool while he was a heel. And I'm guessing he stopped doing the Stinkface.
ReplyDeleteI'm drawing a blank on the interaction with D-X to send him off. Can anyone add any further details?
ReplyDelete"Vince McMahon would have sold his children into white slavery..."
ReplyDeleteDon't give Jesse Baker booking ideas
Was the casket marked "OVW"?
ReplyDelete"Luger gets trashed because they put THE MACHINE behind him and didnt get over."
ReplyDeleteThey still seem butt hurt about this, freaking 20 years later
New Aged Outlaws. 2014
ReplyDeleteYou gotta think thats a lot of money they put on luger ... money they didnt have cuz of the court case that was coming up.
ReplyDeletePlus you got guys sharing five to a room and renting vans to make towns while lex has this plush bus... im sure the guys were a lil butt hurt and wanted to make sure he didnt get over as well.
Nash said his first contract was guaranteed 10 dates at 150 dollars. That was his guarantee!!! Meanwhile lex was making way more a going to towns on this bus for the summmer.
Disparaging much?
I was 10 during The Patriot's "run" and he was super over with me. Granted, I think that's mostly because I was really into the whole Canada v. USA thing, hated Bret and the rest of The Hart Foundation and Patriot was a guy feuding with Bret. I don't know if that angle/feud would resonate as much with 2014 me, but I enjoyed it enough at the time.
ReplyDeleteI think people underestimate how good Luger was until his WWF tenure. Dude was a more than solid worker and had a great look.
ReplyDeleteHe has the reputation of being lazy and not loving The Business, but I don't see how that was true at all, at least during the first few years of his career. I think a lot of his rep stems from the fact that he didn't "pay his dues" like a lot of his contemporaries and guys who came before him, and instead got a pretty big push right from the get-go.
In fact, I was reading an Observer from May 1991 yesterday and Dave mentioned how Luger was planning on touring Mexico because he wanted to learn the Lucha Libre style and find new guys to work with... doesn't really sound like a guy who was lazy and didn't care about The Business.
Russo is back in TNA? Damn the next Jim Cornette Experience podcast is gonna be goooooood.
ReplyDelete10 dates at 150 dollars?!?! That's insane. I remember him saying in a shoot he was making peanuts at the time but I never knew an exact number. Yikes
ReplyDeleteI think one of the problems was how the turn just came out of no where and made no sense. Perhaps if it were more gradual, either with Luger toning down his narcissistic tendencies and/or cutting promos on how he didn't like how guys like Yokozuna carried themselves, the fans would have been more receptive to the turn.
ReplyDeleteIn a way, perhaps Luger was too good in his narcissistic role that the fans bought into that character as the real Lex Luger and thus, they could never embrace a guy who had that sorta personality.
I am intrigued...
ReplyDeleteIts a ghetto version of monopoly?
Hulk #181 for one hundred dollars.
ReplyDeleteVG+ condition
This is sorta true, but not completely. DDP got really over as being the first guy to pull one over on the nWo, but in all three of his big matches with Savage, he lost.
ReplyDeleteLuger did have the one (ridiculously awesome) win over Hogan, but lost the title five days later and honestly, was never as over again for the rest of his career.
Sting and Goldberg were the two guys who actually were able to stand toe to toe with the entire nWo (for a period, anyways). DDP and Luger looked strong at certain periods, but also often fell victim to the nWo numbers game unless Sting made an appearance. Most of the time on those Nitros, especially from late summer/fall of 97-on, the nWo beat downs on everyone not named Sting were just too frequent.
Typical WWE fanboy response...
ReplyDeleteThat music was horrendous. "I'm a bad man, bad man, bad man..."
ReplyDeleteThat's your best comeback?
ReplyDeleteI also loved Rikishi in Too Cool. When he turned heel, I just had no desire to ever see him again and never bought into him as a serious character.
ReplyDeleteWhen you're mostly over because you're a comedy act, it's very difficult to turn into a serious heel and have the fans buy into you unless you're supremely talented. I'm not saying that Rikishi was really untalented, but he didn't have the ring presence or charisma to successfully make that change. The fans only wanted to see him dance, not be some sorta heel threat.
Right now, the show is not bad as you guys are making it out to be. I honestly don't think any of you have watched the show and only go by reviews and use that as your guide.
ReplyDeleteHoney, they have been around for 12 years now. They've been on Spike TV for 8 years now. I think they know what they are doing.
ReplyDeleteWCW's "success" led to them being sold to the WWE in March 2001. Yeah, that's not the kind of success I want.
ReplyDeleteThat would be so sad. Sgt Slaughter used it for a PPV too
ReplyDeleteYeah thats something nobody mentions when it comes to Nash. Dude had a contract with WCW making who knows what to play a stupid character but I bet he was making 50 or more a year guaranteed and he gave that up to come make nothing.
ReplyDeleteYea. Plus he always claims that he told Vince if Vince would just match WCWs offer he would have stayed in the wwf.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with "he was never over again after he lost the title in 97" he was still huge over later on that year going into Starrcade and he was big time over as part of the Wolfpac AND he got heat when he racked Goldberg to reform the nWo. Of course then he got hurt and by the time he came back in August of that year he really was heatless but he still was very over for another year and a half after his loss to Hogan. Same goes for Page fans were nuts for that guy well after he was done messing with the nWo. There was a time around his U.S Title run where he would come through the crowd he really was the peoples champion. In fact I would say that during the WCW's hottest period Luger, Sting, DDP and Goldberg where the biggest babyfaces in the company. It was also a big deal when Luger debuted back in WCW on Nitro and I think that if they would have ran Luger vs. Hogan on a ppv it could have done good numbers.
ReplyDeleteI dont believe that obsever for one second.
ReplyDeleteLuger was smart enough to understand that he didnt have to work a different style to get better. He was the first guy with an agent (obviously from his football days) but to tour mexico as big as a TV star he was in 91 nust to head to mexico (no usa tv) just to get better for so-so payoffs and to get better? He could have just worked with guys who worked in mexico that came back to the usa and got the same thing. For us payoffs. It doesnt make sense for someone like luger. I could be wrong but that story seems like hogwash
Vince couldnt match that cuz then he would have to match everyone. Nashs first contract coming back in 96 was around 750k a year with favored nations not including "the top ten guys" in wrestling at the time.
ReplyDeleteBy 98 luger was DONE.
ReplyDeleteGoldberg was the guy
Sting had lost a lot of steam due to starrcade
Flair was MIA until september
DDP was actually the number two babyface imo.
Nash was up there by april of 98
Luger wasnt even a player.
He was still over but nowhere near goldberg ddp or nash in 98
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. I'm not in the "Meltzer is an idiot who makes shit up and knows nothing" camp, but he isn't infalliable, either.
ReplyDeleteAnd stuff like having an agent is part of what gets Luger trashed by his "contemporaries", because he WAS that different from them...
The biggest mistake they made with Rikishis turn was not changing his look.
ReplyDelete1997... yeah, I'd have bought Steph then.
ReplyDeleteHer cause of death was "acute toxicity", AKA she OD'ed. IF there was any physical link to her death, then Luger's guilty as fuck. But, based on the autopsy, Devin's on target.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember the pants thing at all. I do remember his ring attire was exactly the same. Dumb move not changing it
ReplyDeleteLuger was on the "Heatseekers" panel, IIRC...
ReplyDeleteJR, Bischoff, Foley, Hayes, Lawler.
Off topic, but I wish you could download shows from the Network to a device, even if it's timed. Heading home from NYC to Long Island toady on the trail and it's an hour and a half trip with no wi-fi. Would love to put a show on the iPad for it.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say Luger was never over again, I said he was never as over as he was before losing at Road Wild 97.
ReplyDeleteA lot of the story for 97 was that Hogan kept ducking Luger and Lex would cut promos about how he wanted Hogan in a match. It helped Luger get really over as a babyface because it created the perception that Lex might be the one guy (besides Sting) who could beat Hogan 1-on-1.
Road Wild helped kill that perception and then WCW doing almost nothing with Luger until he randomly joined the Wolfpac, which really didn't do much for him anyway.
I honestly think you're looking at the period through rose colored glasses. Page got a big boost from the Savage feud but between never beating Randy and after it ended, going back into the midcard/upper midcard until the 98 Bash at the Beach, DDP, while still over, lost some steam and wasn't really looked at as a top guy.
His ceiling might have been a C+/B-... his "average" was likely in the C-/D+ range.
ReplyDeleteOlder, I think. Most of the Legends stuff comes from 09/10, maybe into 11.
ReplyDeleteOh I know that they are older collectively but I think that specific ep was 2012. Im not sure though.
ReplyDeleteBro, do you even torrent?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ovguide.com/tv_season/wwe-legends-of-wrestling-season-1-248964
ReplyDeleteAccording to this (NOT definitive, I would agree), Dec 15 2010 is the Over/Under episode... and the series goes back to late 2006? Woah.
TBF, Bush is responsible for a lot of stuff that sucks.
ReplyDeleteBeat me to it
ReplyDeleteI always found it amusing that Luger was labeled a "choker" in a sport with a predetermined outcome.
ReplyDeleteI have before, but that isn't the point ha. Would be much easier to just go onto the network and have access to a show to download for a few hours than searching for torrents.
ReplyDeleteThe mask is what sets The Patriot apart. Without it, he's even more of a jobber.
ReplyDeleteShe'd have been 20 (going on 21)... I'd have been 14 (going on 15)... Fuck, I wouldn't have complained. ;)
ReplyDeleteI was still high school.
ReplyDelete97-2001 Steph was hot. I'm in the minority but I think present day Steph us still pretty hot
ReplyDeleteI understand but for those lonely train rides you should have some backups... some porn... american dad... something!
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, what would stop someone from downloading the content on the network then cancelling? Getting even a fourth of thejr money back?
I know this is just a wish and im playing devil advocate but what I do is for the episodes they havent released I just torrent to my tablet to fill in the gaps.
Luger was probably the biggest babyface in wrestling in the summer of 97. His 2nd run with WCW up until 98 is pretty underrated.
ReplyDeleteThe whole summer leading to the Hogan match, Luger was destroying guys left and right and the torture rack got over huge. It wasn't like Luger just randomly got put in with Hogan for two weeks. They were building to it for awhile.
ReplyDeleteUm, no. DDP beat Savage at Spring Stampede 1997. Which was a 'holy shit' swerve given EVERYONE thought Savage would kick him back to the mid-card. DDP lost the rematch when Hall interfered, and barely lost the final match. Savage did everything possible to make DDP the man.
ReplyDeleteGranted, but beating Hogan CLEANLY by submission is a peak few wrestlers got.
Damn off by a couple...
ReplyDeleteBut yeah I think they started on 24/7 way back when and they would just do a spotlight on two wrestlers and have the panel talk abt them in twenty minute increments... then they went to the format now of actual topics that you see on the network (which I like more)
I wish they would make more and I wish jim ross would facilitate them. If I cant have him as an announcer... no disrespect to gene but its jim ross the GOAT of announcers vs mean gene the hot air machine.
I'd put Nash number 2 ahead of DDP. I think people forget how ridiculously over he was that year. He was right there with Austin and Goldberg.
ReplyDeleteAgain, DDP won the FIRST match against Savage at Spring Stampede 1997. Cleanly.
ReplyDeleteAnd beat him as La Parka!
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty sexist to have a 'oh, she was a delicate flower corrupted by big, bad men' attitude. She'd been in the business a decade, she knew what drugs could do, so she should be accountable there.
ReplyDeleteI agree, and I can deal with her voice/volume.
ReplyDeleteTopic unrelated to the current thread: Watching GAB 91 this morning and everytime I see Scott Hall in WCW as The Diamond Studd, I find it more and more comical that Vince sued WCW for basically stealing the Razor gimmick when he came back in 96. Razor was almost an exact copy of The Diamond Studd. Hairstyle, toothpick, finisher, etc.
ReplyDeleteAlso, about this show, the pyro they had was comical. Maybe it was a big deal for the day, but it's hilarious now.
It was the voice. Razor was a Cuban character, Studd wasn't. It doesn't sound like much but shit like that makes a ton of difference.
ReplyDeleteAnd also, I doubt WCW trademarked Diamond Studd.
ReplyDeleteThe last two might have kept the basic format, but the panel composition was... strange.
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania Memories (aired the week before WM30) was Cole, Flair, Foley, and JBL (um... not good?); and Ultimate Warrior (aired after his death) was Matthews, Booker, Slaughter, and DiBiase (What?)
So two guys that buried Warrior on the panel? I know it it probably isn't easy to find guys who were cool with but still.
ReplyDeleteDepends on the subject. Gene does a good job hosting. I'd rather JR be a panelist.
ReplyDeleteThe HOF is a political money grab but Luger absolutely deserves to go in. I know him and Vince have had a strenuous relationship at times but isn't Luger on the wwe payroll these days?
ReplyDeleteWould be cool to see him go in
Yeah, I knew there was more to it than what I had said, and it makes sense that the voice would put it over the top, but otherwise he was the same guy.
ReplyDeleteLet's deflate the bubble on Nash though. Back in '93 Vinnie Vegas was going NOWHERE in WCW. He was hired as a favor to Shawn to be his bodyguard. Also, guarantees do not equal payoffs. Nash only started to get over come Royal Rumble '94. Vince made him a star and the face of the company in '95. Subsequently Nash took the money and ran in '96.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised to see Luger induct Sting and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine they did anything to protect any of the intellectual property.
ReplyDeleteRoss doesnt get to talk as much as I want him to...
ReplyDeleteBasically I just want him to talk the whole time.
Honestly, the only reason The Patriot gets anywhere out of Jobberville in 1997 is because of the US/Canada angle. Without the Hart Foundation, he'd be so out of place in that WWF.
ReplyDeleteThe seating setup is odd too. Around the ramp, it looks like they could have put in several hundred more seats. It's odd to see big empty spaces.
ReplyDeleteI'm meh on JR these days. His podcast is terrible.
ReplyDeleteBret attacking Patriot during the Star-Spangled Banner is one of my favorite cheap heat moments ever.
ReplyDeleteShortly after I first started watching I remember being fascinated by the 'Narcissist' posing in front of a mirror in the ring, and the whole steel plate in the forearm thing. So he was definitely a draw as far as this 8 year old was concerned.
ReplyDeleteStill havent jumped on that bandwagon yet.
ReplyDeleteIm sure his podcast could ramble since its just him unfiltered to an extent... but within the confines of the wwf he is kept on point for the most part
Took SIGNIFICANTLY more money to go to WCW. I tend to believe him that he would have stayed in wwf if Vince had gotten close to what WCW was offering. Shawn amd Hunter would have still been there.
ReplyDeleteThe IWCs 2nd favorite past time is bashing Nash but he played his career cards about as well as he could have.
The steel plate gimmick was fucking great. One of the more underrated gimmicks
ReplyDelete38 comments and just one vague reference to his time as GWF's franchise?!!?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure this didn't happen.
ReplyDeleteHe sounds hammered half the time and the other half is full of contempt for fans.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite Narcissist memory is Bobby Heenan not being able to pronounce it. He tries like 5 times, it's hilarious.
ReplyDeleteI got clean versions of both...Patriot's sounds like what they would use for a Kurt Angle Family Christmas special. (hey didn't he try and do such a segment in 2000?) Didn't Patriot eventually use the straight-up Angle version eventually?
ReplyDeleteUmmm thats sounds marvelous.
ReplyDeleteUnrelated, but I Love how Austin calls random shit in everyday life a "gimmick".
ReplyDelete"A rake is a stick with metal gimmicks at the end"
"My dog has likes these bones with a gimmick meat flavor. "
That's nothing...I once saw an indy promote the "original" Golga, and it was someone more obese than Tenta was. But that's not the worst of it. Said promotion was done years after John Tenta died. Jersey indies are unfortunate...most are either bush league or run by assholes. There are one or two good ones, but...yeah.
ReplyDeleteHis description of a rake is top-notch.
ReplyDeleteWhen my time travel machine is working, I'm going to get 2001 Kurt Angle and put him in the Patriot's place in 97.
ReplyDelete"Put your hand out and spread your fingers apart. That's what a rake looks like."
ReplyDeleteTNA has never once said they were taking over the world. That's just you making stuff up with pure lies.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I was at the Raw when Patriot beat Bret. I marked out like a motherfucker mainly because of Bret's enema line.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't. He comes off as bitter as fuck.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it worked so well for Smoky Mountain Wrestling. Clearly, you're tye only one who wants something like that in the year 2014.
ReplyDeleteHey if many IWCers can still ignore what Benoit did...
ReplyDeleteAnd isn't this why there was heat between Luger and WWE? Well that and the whole "defect to WCW" thing. Both of which I presume added up to them burying him on this program. Seeing as Lex has appeared on WWE DVDs since, I guess things are ironed out a little bit....
Yes it could have been 2006, but Tatankas Gimmick was out of place in every year after 1996. The times of dancing indians, police men, garbage men, farmers, hockey players, race drivers etc. was over when Stone Cold Steve Austin was there.
ReplyDeleteWith Hogan it depends of the gimmick. His red and yellow phase should have ended in 1996. His Hollywood Hogan thing could still work today.
It's not so much about the age of a wrestler (look at Terry Funk), but if the gimmick fits.
For example Warrior in 1992 was still great, but with Hart, Michaels, Diesel etc. in 96 he looked just like a relic from the 80s.
The only thing I remember about the Patriot is when he wrestled Bret on Raw (around Summerslam 97) with a drugged out HBK on commentary. Shawn starts going off on how stupid it is to have a masked character called the Patriot yet refer to him as Del Wilkes and bring up all of his football history. Then Vince freaks out and starts talking over everyone in his Whatamaneuver Voice.
ReplyDeleteI thought Rick Rude just threw coffee in his face
ReplyDeleteStill not as bad as "Richard" Mortion keeping the mullet and Rock 'n' Roll tights. Or Tatanka .
ReplyDeleteOkay I get what u mean.
ReplyDeleteNot really the performer but the gimmick fitting (or in this case, not) the times
Here's my response: you and TNA can go fuck yourselves. Heck, I don't care if Eric Young dunks your head in the toilet like he's Rocco Siffredi. If you can't handle the fact that there's a group of people who don't give a shit about lame-ass TNA, that's your problem.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the tip, Dixie.
ReplyDeleteTJ: anybody watch legends house yet?
ReplyDeleteIm like a third thru it and visually it matches up with the reality tv shows... just the way the cut and edit the scenes. It doesnt come off like a wwf show but rather a real shitty reality tv show.
That is a compliment btw.
Oh and ashley?
Yum
As Cornette noted, The Patriot was screwed from the get-go, as neither DX or The Hart Foundation liked him, for whatever reason. He was a little bland in the ring(his big moves were a flying shoulderblock and a full-nelson slam, iirc), but he wasn't terrible.
ReplyDeleteI was at this Raw in Pittsburgh so I watched the tape of it many times and, for the most part, remember the exchange (paraphrased):
ReplyDeleteJR: The Patriot....six foot three, 260 pounds, all-american at the university of South Carolina
Shawn: Wait how do you know all this? He's wearing a mask.
JR: Del Wilkes.....
Shawn: Oh.......well wait......if that's Del Wilkes, why is he wearing a mask? We already know who he is.
Vince: He wears the mask because he's the personification of America.
Lawler: Yeah! He used to wear that mask under his football helmet!
Vince: Stop it, Jerry Lawler.
It's shit like this that just pisses me off about the Legends shows. They obviously know certain company lines to tow beforehand and very few (DDP, Foley, Nash to an extent) will not go against that. The rewriting of history when it comes to WCW is the worst. For at least a year they played Vince's "stealing of talent" (as if signing people when their deals end is stealing...) game and put on a better/more interesting product for a year and a half. Most times WWF had better PPVs but Nitro was a better show for a certain period of time and then WWF got hot with Austin and destroyed WCW. But the story according to Patterson and Ross is that WCW used Turner money and made people watch their show. WCW merchandising where shitheads that somehow never sold shit been though the nWo shirt was worn by everyone. Celebrities in wrestling only works with WWF/E even though Rodman and Malone drew big ratings and buy rates. Outdoor Nitros were stupid because they didn't charge even though JJ Dillion just said they did charge for them but not for the Hog/Road Wild shows (which can't be defended). Seriously they need a round table on the BS they spew about WCW.
ReplyDelete"(as if signing people when their deals end is stealing...)"
ReplyDeleteDeals would roll over if the wrestler didn't give notice, so technically, WWE guys were not at the end of their deals when WCW signed them.
If you haven't seen it yet, watch Steamboat vs Orndorff at Halloween Havoc 93. Much better than *1/2 IMO. It's almost like they decided to troll the crowd by having Rick work heel and Paul work face, minus the overt playing to the fans... right up to the finish anyway...
ReplyDeleteThats cuz vince is butt hurt STILL about bisch using his tactics against him.
ReplyDeleteIts over vinnie you won 13 years ago.
Let it go
If they sent a memo 90days before their contract expired to let mgmt know they will not be renewing then that was good
ReplyDeleteI would not say WWF ppvs were better in 95 or 96 at all. Their ppvs sucked the big one until Survivor Series 96 and WCW started floundering by mid 98
ReplyDeleteStill better than Vince's tactics in the 80s
ReplyDeleteThey would usually do that after agreeing with WCW, at least Hall and Nash did.
ReplyDeleteIt's the exact same thing.
ReplyDeleteBut its a verbal agreement so it really holds no water in court. Thats why vince lost one of those early lawsuits. Cuz he thought they were contract tampering
ReplyDeleteOr was that bret?
If anything they were still perceieved as big deal even though they sucked.
ReplyDeleteI still say vince is a great promoter if nothing else. Probably the GOAT as far as promoting an event
Mind Games, Mania 12, Summerslam 96, Good Friends Better Enemies , SS 96 beg to differ.
ReplyDeleteIf there was a lawsuit, I don't remember it being about those guys. Probably someone else.
ReplyDeleteI think WWE whitewashing history is a little overblown. They are usually pretty even on the docs they produce.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. That was the problem with WCW. Starrcade 97 after all their resolve to build it and not have Sting wrestle for a year and a half should have been in a stadium. WWF tied the buyrate with Wrestlemania a few months later with much less build because Vince can do it quickly.
ReplyDeleteI doubt Diesel vs Sid IYHs in front of 3000 people in podunk towns were seen as big time. The WWF was bombing on ppv, Remember WM11? Things were dire.
Summerslam 96 was the turnaround. A lot of one match shows on that list but I hate the Iron Man match so go figure.
ReplyDeleteAlso as much as Shawn's second run has people rewriting history they struggled badly to draw ppv numbers without Bret in 96.
ReplyDeleteThat had way more to do with nWo than Shawn or Bret.
ReplyDeleteIt's not Brandi.
ReplyDeleteThe docs are usually good it's the round tables that are brutal a lot of the time when it comes to this type of stuff. The next time someone not named Page or Foley says something good about WCW will be the first time.
ReplyDeleteThat is because you're dealing with people's opinion. It isn't like they get a script saying BASH WCW! before the show or Vince holds a gun to their head.
ReplyDeleteWould you give an ooooooooh yeah to that?
ReplyDeleteMaybe but you do tend to have better memories of a card with a great main event than one with a horrible one on top. I also like Mania 12 for the undercard more than the main event which I find boring. After 40 min you know they're going to sudden death. Why was that even booked as an iron man match???
ReplyDeleteWCW was holding shows in small southern towns around that time and booking Hogan vs Butcher on top of Starrcade etc.
ReplyDeleteBut you gotta see it from a business perspective.
ReplyDeleteNash/hbk at wm wasnt the draw it was lt/bigelow.
Even when vince is down he pulls a coup like that for his wm.
Another thing I wanna add abt the new generation years. Outside of their overseas tours alot of the tv was taking place in the northeast... thats how bad it got. Vince scaled back his national promotion to a regional to make towns but still had the tv... perception being that it was still big.
Now I was 12-14 during those years I didnt know how bad it was financially. I knew the wrestling sucked. I knew they had guys I wasnt willing to beg moms to order the ppvs but I didnt know he was close to folding and im sure every young fan in my peer range thought the same thing.
Even though they had bad wrestlers on top it was still the WWF. And thats where brand recognition comes in. Thats how you have guys here on this blog even knowing that wcw was putting on a superior prpduct but never changed the station but wcw was second rate compared to how the wwf was perceived.
Thats the genius of vince mcmhaon.