(2014 Scott sez: And now we begin the reposted versions of the Clash shows!)
The SmarK Retro Rant for Clash of the Champions II: Miami Mayhem!
- I bet Dusty thought of that name. (But Mike Graham probably took credit for it later.)
- Anyway, just clearing out some of the backlog this week, as I cover a couple of the early Clashes for the sake of getting them done. It’s either this or CZW, so consider yourself lucky.
- Live from Miami, Florida.
- Your hosts are JR, Tony Schiavone & Bob Caudle.
- Opening match, US title: Barry Windham v. Brad Armstrong.
Barry was just fresh into his US title run as a mega-heel, beating the returning Nikita Koloff in the finals of a tournament for the belt. Brad works the arm to start, as does Windham. Brad gets a slam and Barry bails. Back in, Armstrong works a headlock and Windham bails again. They work the mat against for a bit, but Windham keeps cheating and the ref forces a break. Man, when do you EVER see that anymore? (Dave and Bryan were actually just talking about this phenomenon on the podcast, and basically guys are now being specifically told not to cheat because they don’t do that in “real” sports. You can’t even make this stuff up.) Brad gives him a clean break in the corner, like a moron, and Barry nails him. Windham gets lazy on offense, though, and Brads sends him scurrying again. Back to the headlock, and a criss-cross leads to another headlock. Sign in the crowd: “Barry used to be a big hunk, now he’s just a big punk”, with “Punk” and “Hunk” done in glitter paint and the sign held up by a 14-year old girl. (Of course, now being called Punk is a compliment.) More on this phenomenon later. Barry suplexes out of it and powerslams him for two. Figure-four, assisted by JJ, gets several two counts as Brad can’t reverse. He finally makes the ropes, but gets tossed. Back in, Barry goes up and misses whatever it is he’s usually going for up there, and Brad comes back. Dropkick and kneelift set up a flying bodypress for two. Another one is blocked with the IRON CLAW OF HIDEOUS DISMEMBERMENT, and that’s enough for the win at 14:00 to retain. Solid, but it seemed like they were going for a 20-25 minute match and got sent home early, which would explain all the headlocks early on. **1/2
- I would like to take this moment to mourn the passing of WrestleCrap.com. Why? Because we bring out Lyle Alzado to hype his new sitcom, Learning the Ropes. (This whole segment was cut from the Network version, I hear. Sad face.) Those of you who were around at this time will already be groaning in sympathy pains, but for those of you who were lucky enough not to be privy to that one, here’s the gist: Former football player (and admitted steroid abuser) Alzado plays a mild-mannered (but steroid-abusing) high school teacher with two wacky kids who just can’t make ends meet. So he takes a second job, working as a jobber for Jim Crockett Promotions called “The Masked Maniac”. So each show we got wacky clips of The Maniac getting his ass kicked by NWA stars (with the running gag being that some week he might actually get a win) and interacting with other wacky wrestlers in the dressing room, having wacky conversations and interacting with wacky ring announcer/commentator Bertie Baxter, who was about as hip and cool as his name might imply. Plus there was some stuff at the school. Now, you might read a summary like that and think “Aha, ratings GOLD, baby!”, but in fact Lyle Alzado’s acting ability is roughly on par with Stephanie McMahon’s, without the dynamic range of emotions and fashion sense. (In all fairness, she’s gotten better since then.) Not to mention that Lyle is a foot taller than most of the guys in the promotion and would, in any kind of realistic world, be immediately pushed to the moon regardless of any skill he may or may not have possessed. Finally, he didn’t even do his own matches, which is why the character in question was hooded. The in-ring role was done by Steve “Dr. Death” Williams, who is of course a foot shorter than Alzado and looks nothing like him. This is why we, as Canadians, hold no false ego about the quality of our TV productions, historically speaking. (But we gave you Keifer Sutherland, so fair trade.) Most disturbingly, the visual design of the wrestler in question was recycled two years later by Ole Anderson for the Black Scorpion character. Actually, the most disturbing thing about the show was probably the Family Ties-ripoff theme song, but that’s a minor quibble at this point. Speaking of bad wrestling-TV connections, the A-Team is shown on Movie Central’s action channel up here every night (and now Netflix as well, I believe.), and on Wednesday it cycled around to the Hulk Hogan episode. It’s the one where Hogan is lifelong friends with B.A., and they team up to stop an evil corporation from taking over an orphanage. Okay, that’s every episode, but Hogan was in this one. Anyway, wrestling was treated as real (with Murdoch of course being a super-mark) and Hogan had two matches on the show: A knockout victory over John Studd via the Axe Bomber (complete with slow motion stills to show just HOW fake wrestling is) and a pinfall win over Greg Valentine via the usual. The most notable thing about this one for me was Hogan being treated by the writers as if all wrestlers can toss around guys at will without their cooperation, specifically through windows and the like. The most surreal moment was when the Hired Goons (because there’s always Hired Goons in the A-Team for them to dispatch and/or interrogate, sort of the equivalent of jobbers in wrestling) chased Hogan and B.A. into a gym, where the likes of the British Bulldogs and Ricky Steamboat were working out. Needless to say, Steamboat used some melodramatic martial arts to dispatch one guy, while Davey Boy Smith headbutted another one into unconsciousness. The whole time I was thinking “Hell, 3 guys against Dynamite Kid is barely a workout for him, why even bother with the other wrestlers?”, but it was 1985, and we didn’t know any better at the time.
- Speaking of bad acting, Flair and Luger sign the contract for their Bash 88 match on Flair’s yacht.
- Backstage, the Horsemen are HERE. I know the WWF’s officially mandated and notarized position on just about everything in the wrestling world is they invented it from whole cloth and Vince’s glorious loins, but Crockett was doing the “Wrestlers arriving an hour late in limos” shtick 10 years before Vince Russo started stealing it for RAW.
- US tag title match: The Fantastics v. The Sheepwhackers.
Due to a tearful request from a New Zealander fan, I will refrain from using my usual insulting alternate name for the Sheepherders, because apparently it’s what Australians like to call New Zealanders. As someone of Scottish descent, I can sympathize with that position. Rip Morgan is the flagbearer of note at this point. We cut back to Luger arriving, at which point the Horsemen storm the parking garage and kick his ass all over the place. JJ Dillon is nice enough to blade Luger right on camera, which results in a better blood flow than what we got at Bash 88. Back to the arena: Tommy gets pounded by Luke Williams right away, but gets a bodypress for two. Bobby comes in and cleans house. Butch works him over and gets an elbow for two. They do some double-teaming on Fulton, but he dropkicks Luke out and they brawl. Rip nails his own man by mistake with the flag, but the ‘Herders don’t sell it and keep on offense. Huh. Tommy comes in and drops an elbow for two and gets a rollup for two, but Butch nails him and pounds away. Tommy comes back and it’s a donnybrook. The Herders bail and stall. The mysterious glitter-painted signs at ringside return again, with another woman holding up a sign saying “Hunk Hunk Hunk” in tacky glitter-painted letters and carefully arranged formatting. Now, I’m not saying they’d stoop to planting signs in the crowd, but this is getting a WEE bit suspicious. I’ll keep an eye on the situation. (Given their financial situation I’m shocked they could even afford glitter glue at that point.) Back in, Butch goes to work on Tommy as he plays face-in-peril. Luke gets the ABDOMINAL STRETCH OF DISCOMFORT, and more double-teaming follows. Tommy Rogers ducks a big boot, gets the theoretical hot tag to Bobby Fulton, and Bobby promptly gets planted and beaten down in the heel corner. Did the Fantastics do something to piss off the Sheepherders backstage or did they always cut off babyface comebacks like this? Double-KO with Luke and Bobby, and Fulton fights off Butch and bodypress on both guys at one for two. They do a comedy spot with Bobby & Tommy taking turns trying for the pin, until the Sheepherders get frustrated and bail. Tommy works on Luke’s arm, but ANOTHER cheapshot puts him on the floor, where he gets absolutely demolished in several ways, the most nasty of which involves a non-folding chair to the back. The timekeeper appears to be legally stupid, as he’s compressing 5 minutes into 4, resulting in “5 minutes” being announced at 4:00 and “10 minutes” at 8:00. I’ve never understand that practice – I can understand lying about attendance figures and buyrates, but whether or not a match was 16:00 or 18:00 can’t possibly have a bearing on the money it draws. Luke drops an elbow on the back for two. Heel miscommunication follows, but they ignore Tommy’s comeback and keep double-teaming. What the hell is going on here? Butch gets a running knee and Luke hits the chinlock. Rogers FINALLY gets a bit of offense, tags Fulton, and he rolls up Luke for the pin at 17:03 out of nowhere. That was long and disjointed and just WEIRD at times. Fantastics bumped their asses off, as usual, but they’re no Rock N Roll Express without the Midnights to carry them. ***
- Ronnie & Jimmy Garvin v. Rick Steiner & Mike Rotundo.
Big brawl to start, with the Garvins getting stereo sleepers. Kevin Sullivan is locked in a cage at ringside, by the way, and spends much of the match involved in a bizarre subplot with Precious whereby they make googly eyes at each other and hatch an unspoken plot that was supposed to result in Precious turning on Jimmy but never ended up going anywhere. The line was crossed when Sullivan started making allusions to coat hangers in her past and they pulled the plug on the whole deal. Ron & Rick start proper, and Ron KO’s him for two very quickly. Jimmy works a hammerlock. The Varsity Club regroups and Rotundo goes. They trade amateur stuff, and Ron comes in. Lots of stalling here. The VC switches off in the heel corner, behind the ref’s back, but sadly they’re not doing anything more vile and heelish than an armbar. Now the timekeeper has gotten SLOW, waiting until 6:00 to announce five minutes gone by. The Club keeps on that armbar. Rotundo gets a clothesline for two, and Rick keeps on that arm. Jimmy finally gets tagged and elbows Rick for two. He works a facelock to slow it down ever more. Ron rolls up Rick for two, but Rotundo comes in. Ron sunset flips him for two, but Mike gets a backdrop and legdrop to take over. They choke him out with the tag rope and toss him like TNN dumped ECW. (High five! Anyone?) Back in, Ron makes the hot tag to Jimmy, and it’s a pier-six. Jimmy pins Rick with a brainbuster out of nowhere at 13:11, but the camera was busy with Sullivan & Precious’s brawl on the outside. Match started slow, built slow, and just didn’t go anywhere. **
- They announce a scaffold match for the Bash PPV between the Powers of Pain and the Road Warriors. I’ve heard various (and occasionally conflicting) stories on this one, but the basic gist of most of them seems to be that the Powers felt that the scaffold would make for an unsafe working environment, and they did an end-run around Jim Crockett one week and showed up on WWF TV the next, necessitating the total rebooking of the midcard in the NWA as a result.
- Al Perez v. Nikita Koloff.
Hey, it’s Nikita without steroids. Or a razor for his head. His anti-drug is Jesus. (Holy dated reference, Batman!) By 1991, those large muscles had mysteriously returned in time for a renewed push, probably because he looks like friggin’ X-PAC without all the chemical enhancement. Ooo, a 200 pound Russian babyface, get me a ticket RIGHT NOW. Tony tries to sell this as a serious rivalry, but then he was trying to sell the Tower of Doom as a serious match stipulation one segment ago, so take his word with a grain of salt. Shoving to start, and Koloff overpowers him. Through the wonder of wrestling, 200 pound Koloff was portrayed as bigger and badder than 240 pound Al Perez at this point. Speaking of Perez, picture Vince Russo with longer hair and an actual physique, and you’ve got it. Koloff grabs an armbar and works on that for a bit. Hunk sighting: Another sign in the crowd, another girl in the front row, more glitter paint. We have a conspiracy. Perez nails him in the corner, and Koloff misses a blind charge, giving Al the advantage. Out they go, where Perez works on the back. Slam on the floor, and back in Koloff steals a near-fall before Perez hits the chinlock. Perez had a good look, which probably explains why Fritz Von Erich gave him the WCCW title for the better part of a year before jobbing him to his kid. But the wrestling skill…ugh. Koloff powers out thanks to the power of Christ, and they mess up a rollup spot thanks to the power of Satan. Perez dumps him, but Nikita sunset flips in. Koloff with a suplex to make the comeback. Shoulder tackle and elbow puts Perez on the floor, but Larry Zbyszko runs in for the DQ at 12:04. Twelve minutes for THAT ending? * (It’s Larry, he probably needed 7 minutes to get from the dressing room to the ring while yelling insults at fans in the front row.)
- NWA World title: Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard v. Dusty Rhodes & Sting.
Not quite Sting-Flair, is it? Anderson tosses Sting early on, but punches the post by mistake and Sting works the arm. Tully comes in and gets dominated, and Dusty adds his usual. Tully gets pinballed and Dusty uses a figure-four, leaving him open to a cheapshot, and indeed that’s what happens. Ah, heel psychology is chicken soup for the cheater’s soul. They pound Dusty on the floor, but he gets a lariat on Tully back in the ring. Dropkick and Sting comes in to clean house. Stinger splash on Tully, but the Horsemen sucker him in and punk him out. Arn gets an elbow for two. Pump splash misses, but Tully holds Sting in enemy territory. Arn DDTs him on the floor, but Sting shakes it off and comes back. Backslide gets two, and he hotshots Tully and tags Dusty. DDT Arn, big elbow gets two, and the whole thing breaks down into a no-contest at 10:45. Barry Windham attacks the Dream while Tully & Arn lay the beats on Sting. **
The Bottom Line:
Fairly solid first half, but the goofy finishes dropped the quality dramatically by the end. Nothing to recommend here.
Wrestlecrap.com's death/retirement lasted even shorter than the usual in wrestling. Thank goodness.
ReplyDeleteBrad Armstrong could really go in the ring. It's too bad he never found a character to really help me get over. So weird to think Brian Armstrong ended up being more famous than any of them.
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame all WCW gave him were ridiculous/stupid characters...
ReplyDeleteArachniman? Bad Street (the masked Freebird)? Buzzkill? When throwing candy to the fans and wearing red and white striped tights is your best gimmick, there's no hope to getting over. He was still a very good worker through all of the nonsense. Sad face.
I think WWE were overly optimistic to the public about the initial subscribers numbers, to stoke the stock price. With it failing to reach 1m on its initial announcement, it either means wwe misjudged in their initial predictions, were too optomistic to stoke the stock market, or the network didn't live up to the expectations of the perceived 1m buyers WWE Network expected.
ReplyDeleteLike Scott said, I don't believe the network in itself is less than what was promised, but I believe WWE over-stated (or over-estimated) their estimated launch #s.
No more cheating heels? WTF is that bullshit?
ReplyDeleteThere are no "faces" and "heels". Vince said so.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember who it was, but someone once said on Meltzer's old Eyada show that Armstrong was one of the funniest people you would ever talk to, but he hadn't found a way to translate that to on air. You have to wonder if he had been in the WWF instead, if Vince could have done something for him.
ReplyDeletepeople should hate the character not the actions. Of course they then insist on their heel characters having catchphrases to sing along too (We the People, Wyatt Family with both the song and announcing the town, Bad news, etc.) I don't even think WWE knows how to make a heel other than sending Cena out there. See the demon kane for how not to make a heel interesting 101.
ReplyDeleteAnyone that thinks they don't cheat in real sports didn't see the Mayweather/Maidana fight.
ReplyDeletepeople said that about Malenko too, although Dean had a bigger push than Armstrong.
ReplyDeleteor any football game. or basketball game. Or Michael Pineda pitch. Or Lucic putting his stick in Brendan Smith's groin whil the ref just watches (must have been a WWE official).
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, the WWE told everyone they wouldnt hit 1 million by now. But now everyone knows that every day under 1 million is a day that loses money.
ReplyDeleteIts all timing bc the product is just stale right now. Those 400k that only bought WM are the key. I just dont see what the WWE is giving those fans that they want more.
Triple H, Cena, Batista, Kane, Orton...been there, done that a million times.
What a miscarriage of justice!
ReplyDeleteIt was always funny in basketball cam when they actually TAUGHT you how to cheat.
ReplyDeleteSide note: Why isn't stuff like "Learning the Ropes" on the Network? I'd like to see that and the WWF cartoon again.
ReplyDeleteI blame Steve Austin.
ReplyDeletePersonally i found this to be a terrible show. After the wonderful first Clash they turned it into an infomercial for the next ppv. I thought the opener was painfully boring and despite risk of losing my smark card, I always found Armstrong boring, in and out of the ring. The Fantastics/Sheepherders match was an ok brawl but nothing special. The Garvin match was also boring and knowing how the tower of doom match ended makes all the extracurriculars worse. Nikita looked terrible without roids. Some guys needed steroids to have a career. The three biggest examples for me would be Nikita, Davey Boy, and Dynamite Kid. Without them they just didn't look like wrestlers. The main event was passable. I guess the big thing was the Luger beatdown.
ReplyDeleteWWE doesn't have exclusive rights to them, probably, and not worth the money to put on the Network. Who wants to see Learning the Ropes, other than a one-and-done curious viewing?
ReplyDeleteHey, like Mark Grace said, If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Lucic should have been ejected and suspended for the rest of the series. And either Smith or one of his teammates should have kicked the shit out of him.
The Multi-Million Dollar Man?
ReplyDeleteIf that's the case about Brad Armstrong then we just got a glimpse of the direction of Big E's career.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was always like, "So, you want us to keep moving, while we're setting the pick? Isn't that illegal?" I would get, "Yeah, but they won't call it."
ReplyDeleteyep. you learn how to grab jerseys and not get caught in the post, how to get away with a hip on picks, and these days how to "sell." If I wasn't a wrestling fan I would curse wrestling for bringing the concept of selling a call into sports. I guess it's been going on in soccer for decades but it is just in the past 20 years or so that you really have seen guys floppoing and flailing in the NBA and receivers throwing their arms up in football to try and get calls. I hate it.
ReplyDeleteI think a good portion of those 400k were probably waiting to see if the Network stream would hold up to WM traffic. I know that was the case with me, at least.
ReplyDeleteit is the Red Wings. They have no one to kick anybody's ass. The closest they had was Jordan Tootoo (hardly a top heavyweight) and they sent hm to Grand Rapids. Besides, even if someone attacked Lucic, Thornton would maul the Red Wings in return. And do it to Pavel or Nyquist or Kronwall
ReplyDeleteI hate when a guy shoots a three (or any jumper, but it's usually a three), and falls down when a defender gets close, with =out even getting touched. That's just bullshit.
ReplyDeleteI used to watch that every week though. The best part of this clash got clipped out. Now that I've watched it and know that Learning the Ropes stuff got clipped, I'll never watch again.
ReplyDeleteSmith plays for the Red Wings? Fuck him then, no ejection or suspension.
ReplyDeleteThere's an NHL player named Nyquist? Is he related to the X-games guy?
LOL. I live in Michigan. Yes, Gustav Nyquist. 2nd year Swede (on the Red Wings? imagine that) who scored about 30 goals and really stepped up while vets were injured.
ReplyDeleteIt was getting bad in hockey too until the league cracked down on it. Still happens here and there though, especially in playoff games.
ReplyDeletein a way you can also blame Jordan. Michael got really bad the last 4 or 5 years of his career for whining for calls when he was never even touched. It's become the norm, only today's players add theatrics. I will say that a few guys like Laimbeer would flop on a block/charge call or in the post, but nothing like today.
ReplyDeleteVince needs to quit reading so many psychology books.
ReplyDeleteProbably not related then, Ryan Nyquist is from North Carolina, I think.
ReplyDeleteI like how that article ignores the fact that over the last year or so WWE has introduced several high profile new talents that have been huge successes so far. But nope, it's still all about Cena.
ReplyDeleteIf Brad had channeled Road Dogg's charisma, he would have been huge.
ReplyDeleteLaimbeer was a major cheater anyway.
ReplyDeleteThey were pretty dead there before they had the reboot.
ReplyDeleteI blame Vince/creative 100% for Big E's situation, because they refuse to believe a big guy can be anything but "generic angry big guy." Dude is HILARIOUS.
ReplyDeletea third of Allen Iverson's points were from selling the hits he took when driving to the lane.
ReplyDelete..and don't get me started on flopping.
Kobe would kick his foot out on a jumper so it created more space. If the defender hit his foot he'd fall out like he got shot.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to say this until I'm blue in the face. people are scared of commitments Netflix goes month to month as does Hulu. No matter the price people see 6 month commitment and freak out. I get why they want a commitment. They don't want people ordering just for WM and canceling it. But they have to trust the value of the product or I think they will continue to struggle. Free trials are nice but now they are doing incentives with giftcards too. At a certain point you trap yourself where no one wants to sign up without a freebie. Happens to lots of businesses.
ReplyDeleteyep. scumbag of a player. As a huge Laker fan in the 80s I hated the Celtics and then the Pistons with a passion.
ReplyDeleteWhat an odd stance.
ReplyDeleteHe was honest about it. In the 30 for 30 special he got Parish to punch him in the face. when they picked him up the first thing he said was, "Did they kick him out?"
ReplyDeleteI recently came back to the product and one guy that stood out was Big E. I'm bummed that he appears to be on his way to jobber city.
ReplyDeleteHe tried to with the Buzzkill character.
ReplyDeletenot a stance, just no matches on the show that warrant a 2nd or 3rd viewing like with other shows. I watched it and now I can say I did.
ReplyDeleteAt least he's not dancing (yet)
ReplyDeleteThey could at least do something like $15/month on a per month basis and $10/month if you commit to at least 6 months.
ReplyDeleteReading this, I couldn't help but feel that the writer is a wrestling fan, but is tired of the John Cena schtick, and he thinks changing things up will make a difference. You know who the Network appeals to most? The very fan it's setup to appeal to: the longtime hardcore fan, with the possibility of bringing back FORMER longtime hardcore fans who jumped ship. I honestly can't see Little Johnny or Little Jimmy being interested in World Class from 1982, but that's where the current content comes into play. You run the Special Events for ALL fans, and retain your hardcores with the older stuff. I think it's the best of both worlds here, and it's just going to take more time than they realized for everyone to come around. Again, not all customers are familiar with streaming devices.
ReplyDeleteThere are two lenses to view wrestling from, the fan lens, and the public lens. The public still only knows 2-3 names, Hogan, Austin, Rock. I would say Cena is even a bit of a stretch. Certainly the Joe on the street doesn't know Bray Wyatt or Adam Rose. Hell, the general public doesn't even know what TNA is and they've had a national tv show for nearly a decade.
ReplyDeleteThe Ringmaster
ReplyDeleteTrue but I just hate how the author of that article still thinks Cena is the only guy WWE are pushing right now.
ReplyDeleteI have faith that Big E is going to recover from this. A lot of the same things were being said about Cesaro after he lost the US Title and now he is on the cusp of being a main eventer. Hopefully the same goes for Big E.
ReplyDeleteThey are fine as far as talent goes, but it is going to be the booking that makes or breaks it. The Shield is an example of everything right to do with incoming talent. But the days of resenting talent the fans get behind have to be over. They have to learn that you don't bury a guy like Zack Ryder for finding a new was to get over or resent the fans for showing interest.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately I think their strategy will be to focus on making more angles on Network exclusive shows to punish the fans that haven't subscribed which is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
He'll be alright...once he starts dancing.
ReplyDeleteTo the Average Joe he is. I can talk to my friends and they know Cena. They don't know Bryan unless they've seen the "Yes" chants on a pro-football game.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's the next step. Taking the Bray Wyatt or Roman Reigns or whoever and making him that guy your Uncle knows about.
"The WWE can put up literally every single wrestling match that has ever taken place and it wouldn’t matter. They need to get people to care about the matches that haven’t happened yet."
ReplyDeleteThis is the money quote from the article. The hardcore fans (us and others in the IWC) are already subscribed, I'd argue mainly for the back catalog. The problem is getting the people who only watch Raw and only buy WrestleMania to subscribe and stay. Those who don't care about old shows who just want modern content.
The subscriber count come September will be telling, when the first slew of renewals are up. I wouldn't be shocked if the overall subscription number falls instead of rises at that point.
Good point. That's why they need to be booking every "Special Event" until then like it was Wrestlemania, and Bryan floundering with Kane ain't gonna cut it.
ReplyDeleteThere had to have been something more going on with Ryder. We don't know what really goes on backstage despite what's reported on the Observer.
ReplyDeleteWith Xavier Woods.
ReplyDeleteYou mean you don't want to watch canned laughter, horrible puns, bad wrestling, and Ricky Morton being a rock star?
ReplyDeleteDurn.
It's really hard to catch lightning in a bottle, which is what WWF did with Hogan, Austin and the Rock, and what WCW did with the nWo. Those people brought in huge numbers because they transcended wrestling and became iconic inclusions into the popular culture. You can't expect that with everybody and just because someone is popular within the wrestling landscape (Daniel Bryan, John Cena, Sting and Shawn Michaels all come to mind), it won't necessarily translate into a pop culture phenomenon.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, with the way WWE handles itself these days, the era of the business boom may be over. You can't get a guy over as a huge mainstream crossover star if you don't let the guy become a huge mainstream crossover star because you're afraid he'll leave to do movies. The WWE seems to be pretty happy with what it has now - it has a place within the popular culture, although nowhere near as high as it used to be.
We may have to get used to that.
I gather the syndicator has the rights to the show, and JCP didn't?
ReplyDeleteI think it is similar to the deal with Ziggler. They don't see him as a guy. It's been reported that WWE doesn't see Ziggler as a guy with the mic skills to main event. I tend to agree with that, but I think he really has not had the chance to prove me wrong. IMO you don't bury a guy just because YOU don't think he has something. Nobody though Goldberg was a great mic worker or technical wrestler, but he made WCW a few dollars.
ReplyDeleteWith Ryder I think you have that added to resentment over him using the internet to get himself over outside of the machine. And as anyone who has worked for an asshole company or boss can tell you, as much as they preach taking initiative, what they really mean is initiative OUR
Two things annoyed me about Sting/Dusty vs. Arn/Tully:
ReplyDelete1) Arn's finisher was the DDT, so when he hit Sting with it on the floor, JR's all like "Oh no! He's dead! Bring out the dirt!" and Sting shakes it off like he just tripped.
2) Somehow, Dusty bled WHILE Barry had the claw on him. Yes, the Massaging Clawhold Of Infinite Discomfort is so strong it could make men's heads bleed. I know Dusty's head was already as tough as wet toilet paper from years of blading, but still.
You could also argue the culture nowadays doesn't really give an opportunity for wrestling to be as big as it was in previous eras, regardless of how well they do.
ReplyDeleteIf the WWE Network just offered the current live PPV's, pre/post-shows, current RAW/SD, and those exclusive shows like Countdown, Legends House, then I would not subscribe. I think that goes for a lot of us as well.
ReplyDeleteShoot, Joey Crawford makes a fusion of Danny Davis and nWo Nick Patrick look like Tommy Young.
ReplyDeleteIf anything, the Network gives me a spark of hope. They can't afford to be happy with that anymore.
ReplyDeleteAs for your examples, I'll break them down:
Hogan - The AWA was doing exactly what WWE has done with a lot of guys. They pushed him, but wouldn't throw the weight of the company behind him. Vince did.
Austin - Vince was getting his ass kicked and was willing to try new things. Also, Vince made himself into one of the greatest heels of all time and sold his ass off. CM Punk had the Summer of Punk and then was never given a proper foil, nor anyone to sell him as a superstar. Instead HHH waffled around the edge of face and heel and finally got a win over him.
Rock - I think a huge key to Rock's popularity was allowing him to trash other wrestlers. I still remember Rock mocking Billy Gunn's music, "Well I'm an ASSHOLE" Did that hurt Billy Gunn? Probably. But who was gonna make you money? I can't see someone verbally trashing another talent with the 50/50 booking they do because someone's feelings might get hurt.
I'm sick of analyzing the networks profitability, ROI, etc.
ReplyDeleteAwaiting BigNasty96 to say something really fucking dumb in this thread. It's what he does
I'm not at all arguing with your examples, and I think they each play to the argument I made up top. Before they were a publicly-traded company, Vince McMahon was willing to shake things up a bit when the company was creatively stagnant.
ReplyDeleteHe saw something special in Hogan, in Austin and in Rocky and built the promotion around their efforts. They won't necessarily take the risks they might have taken pre-2002 now that there are stockholders.
While I'm sure being a publicly-traded company gives Vince and company a lot more money, it probably causes a level of creative bankruptcy because they need to play things safe.
Would there be more of a benefit to the WWE if they offered the 1st hour of RAW as Network exclusive at 8 PM then had 9-11 on USA? I know that the TV contract is one of their biggest sources of profit, but it could entice more people to buy the Network.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely with #1, but I think #2 is fucking AWESOME. But, I'm a total sucker for that kind of shit.
ReplyDeleteYou shut up and analyze it and LIKE IT!
ReplyDeleteBlading off the claw was pretty common back in the day.
ReplyDeletei wonder how pissed netflix is that they're being used as the tag line for the network pitch to the public
ReplyDeletealso, the fact that they suddenly are bribing people to sign up has to mean something, right? i imagine they're far far into the black with wweshop.com and can write off all of the gift cards they're offerering
Definitely. That's the reason for TV PG. And while I don't think wrestling needs to be CZW, I think they sorely need some blood to sell big matches like HIAC.
ReplyDeleteYeah, and two $25 gift cards are MAYBE putting them out of $10 of merch.
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. I think it would have the opposite effect. People would just stop watching rather than have to pay for the Network to keep track of the storylines.
ReplyDeleteI'd imagine most of the t-shirts have like an 80% markup considering they clearance them out for around $5 sometimes. I'm wondering if talent won't get residuals on stuff given away for free from these gift cards though.
ReplyDeletei sent scott an e-mail about this, so hopefully he'll post it, that with all the recapping that goes on in a given show, there's no incentive to watch everything anyway
ReplyDeletei didnt realize kiefer sutherland was canadian. he sounds so normal!
ReplyDelete"As someone of Scottish descent"
ReplyDeleteyour daughter and all future children will be of scottish descent!
'cause like, your name is scott, and stuff
Using HITC to blow off big angles instead of just doing it because it's October would help a lot more than blood.
ReplyDeleteDeath of WrestleCrap?
ReplyDeleteTo quote the Deal, I didn't even know we were sick!
And we wonder where Cena got the idea for brushing off the DDT on the floor at the SummerSlam.
ReplyDeleteWhat a huge drop-off from the first Clash. I got bored with it about halfway through the Windham-Armstrong match. The contract signing really finished me off.
ReplyDeleteI never knew that either. Fun fact: he's had 4 DUIs. I guess he is Canadian...
ReplyDeleteI agree with Scott, I don't see it failing.
ReplyDelete"Due to a tearful request from a New Zealander fan, I will refrain from using my usual insulting alternate name for the Sheepherders, because apparently it’s what Australians like to call New Zealanders."
ReplyDeleteConfirmed as an Aussie, not so much towards the massive Maori dudes walking around though
THIS!
ReplyDeleteI don't necessarily need blood in a match, even HIAC, but forcing the match for no reason is ridiculous.
I assumed he wrote this
ReplyDeleteIf they're going to do that, then at the very least they need to get ALL of the old stuff up as soon as they possibly can. There's not really enough there right now to entice that many people to buy it while the current product is still being marketed to the people who buy Cena shirts
ReplyDeleteLearning the ropes had one of the best theme songs of the 80's
ReplyDeletehey, I resent that. I was writing godawful Onion-style news stories before the reboot, so that PROVES we were alive
ReplyDeleteMaidana headbutted, threw a flying knee and his corner was encouraging him.
ReplyDeleteHow the fuck does he still have a job? Do NBA refs have a union?
ReplyDeletewell of course not, you've got the happy face
ReplyDeleteYou can't see R-Truth's imaginary friend and Bray Wyatt's accomplice interested in World Class from 1982?
ReplyDeleteI can't even think of anyone I would refer to the network. My friends who watch already have it and anyone else wouldn't be interested in the slightest.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the Ryder sentiment. His situation is so radically different from anyone on the roster that there's definitely a different situation occuring, I feel. I think unlike Ziggler - who still gets featured on TV regularly - there is something else beneath the burial.
ReplyDeleteMike Graham seemed desperate to be given credit for something. Can we name self-inflicted gun shots after him or something? He'd like that.
ReplyDeleteHe must have grown up in America, I haven't once heard him cite his humble nature as proof he's better than everyone else.
ReplyDeleteFrank Constanza: This Clash... is not my kind of Clash.
ReplyDeleteThat was always one of the sadder moments of the Russo WCW. Basically proving that he had nothing left by doing mere copies of his WWF shit. Sad for Brad, too, as he was just a jobber by that point, desperately trying to pick up something from his brother (who could barely work).
ReplyDeleteAll just rules within the rules.
ReplyDeleteWell said. I think the potential pool of subscribers is MUCH less with a six month commitment requirement in place. Everyone's money is green, they are losing out on a lot of customers who are more casual with their fandom.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the bigger problem is that they haven't had a worker/environment to create a new Hogan/Rock with. They certainly TRIED to make Cena a new Hogan, but it didn't work because Cena wasn't good enough/not enough people want a Hogan type face in the era of big weekly television shows.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone's head could be made to bleed with a gentle squeeze I would think it would be Dusty's. Or Carlos Colon's. Or Abdullah's.
ReplyDeleteIt's not his fault... he was cursed.
ReplyDeleteIf they don't know Bryan, then they aren't even watching the current product, so what difference does that make?
ReplyDeleteNope. I see them as more SpongeBob types.
ReplyDeleteDonald Sutherland hails from my Nana's home of Saint John, New Brunswick. I assume Kiefer grew up in Canada as well.
ReplyDeleteTime for some regional Scottish humour I learned living in Aberdeen.
ReplyDeleteQ: What do they call a sheep tied to a post in Dundee?
A: A leisure centre!
I think the Cliff Notes summary gets right at it: If WWE could put out a product people REALLY wanted to watch on a consistent basis AND coupled that with access to the library, network subscriptions would go through the roof. It's stagnant because the writing still sucks, and my five year old isn't interested in ANYTHING on the Network except the "Special Events."
ReplyDeleteAgreed, I am kind of a traditionalist that way too. I hate it when they cut out all the hotline segments or random ads and stuff. That's part of the nostalgia value.
ReplyDeletehe, his dad, and his son all went the same way. Spooky
ReplyDeleteI really don't understand why they didn't undershoot the subscribers to say 500,000 in the U.S. in the first year. That's very solid and when they overdeliver then Wall Street would have been excited. It was a very, very bad move.
ReplyDeleteI caught the Nikita vs Perez match while i was transferring tapes at work. It took me about 5 minutes to realize that was Nikita. His tights didn't even seem to fit him.
ReplyDeleteI HATE that show!
ReplyDeleteBINGO.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I've talked more about WWE with former fans in recent months than I have since 2000. So many former fans have jumped on board for this.
Maybe the gun is haunted?
ReplyDeleteAlways so strange to me, the way some family members cannot seem to escape the same fates and that it persists over generations like that.
ReplyDeleteanother possibility that just occurred to me for the network's seeming underperformance: wwe assumes that if you're a wwe fan today, you're a fan of what has come in the past (and that you'll be a fan of what is to come), or that you'd like to be a fan of the past
ReplyDeletei honestly don't think the majority of current fans give two shits about wrestling history.
ya know that uber small percentage of the audience that doesnt matter? the iwc? that's who cares about the network. and as everyone loves to claim, we dont count for anything.
Who in WWE is responsible for the non-cheating heel? This goes along the same path of "no managers" nonsense of a few years ago and John Cena doesn't care if he lost the World title crap. Seriously, the basic principal of the product has basically been the same since 1950 with only highspots, presentation and business structure really changing. Booking principals are almost all the same. The concept of good vs. evil, evil foreigners, turning on partners, moving up the card over a career before moving back down at the end, etc. are all the same. Why eliminate something that has worked for so long? Next heels won't be able to insult babyfaces...
ReplyDeleteThis guy gets it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure the WWE DOES make that assumption. When they push the Network, what do they mention? The exclusives like Countdown and Legends' House (which, yes, has to do with the company's history) and the fact that you get all of the PPV's included. They're basically pushing original content and their current product. Very rarely do they focus on the historical aspect of the package.
ReplyDeletepart of the initial buzz they tried to push after launch was the availability of all the past ppv's
ReplyDeletegood idea. Or have exclusive content for a longer commitment (like extra vault content like SMW or something) like full DVD viewings for stuff like rise and fall of ECW or Ric Flair dvds or something. I've been thinking of the option of a higher price point for exclusive content. I wouldn't put anything related to the current product in this tier but for us old timers extra vault footage might be worth an additional 5 bucks a month.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the hands-on touch you only get with hired goons
ReplyDeletewell first off you advertise for different audiences. What you push in a press release sure to be picked up by all the smark sites online is different from how you advertise on Raw. Plus "all the ppvs" encompasses stuff from just the past year or two to witness the rise of Daniel Bryan or your favorite Cena stuff. Let's not think of "all the ppvs" as exclusive to watching GAB89 or RR92.
ReplyDeletei honestly don't think any current newer fan thinks, "man, i gotta check out dbry came out as the surprise team member at that summerslam!"
ReplyDeleteno one knows Nake pics of Stern? Maybe he "retires" soon, but he sure does ref a lot of big games. Which of course leads some to put him as part of the nba conspiracy theories about who should win (which don't hold up after watching Chicago and Houston get bounced but do hold up with Indiana and OKC sliding through)
ReplyDeleteMy kid watched Summerslam 2013 approximately 62 times during the first week or two the network was on.
ReplyDeleteOther than a complete overhaul of creative direction (which isn't going to happen), I just don't know what else WWE can do to bring in new subscribers. If Wrestlemania didn't do it, nothing will. As others have stated, the number of people like us who love the old archive stuff is very small. The other wrestling fans I know have absolutely no interest in going back to watch Clash of the Champions or old MSG shows. They watch Raw, Smackdown, and a couple of PPVs per year.
ReplyDeleteprobably true. Which leads to the conflict of having one audience that is desperate for vault content and buys it for that content and one audience that only cares about main event and nxt and raw post game shows, plus the cheap "specials."
ReplyDeleteyou are probably right about some, but all of us became hardcore fans at some point, while most remained casuals. Today is no different. So some fans will want to see that stuff and most won't. WWE has to navigate that and slowly try to make more hardcore fans. The Network offers the best opportunity to create a hardcore fans since the interntet (and before that tape trading).
ReplyDeleteAny Major League pitcher ever...
ReplyDeleteWatch some old Von Erich matches and you'll see heels tap an artery to sell the deadliness of the claw.
ReplyDeletecan't imagine Netflix minds The more brand awareness the better. One of the things Blockbuster found out win they tried to compete online is that Netflix (even back then) was like Kleenex when it came to online renting. They WERE online renting. When you become ubiquitous with something, you've got it made (unless you are xerox or kodak and your product becomes obsolete).
ReplyDeletesame here
ReplyDeleteChrist--it's been nonstop conspiracy north of the boarder since the Raptors lost Game 7
ReplyDeleteJoey Crawford can have a job all he wants. What I demand to know is how the Bennett Salvatore has been brought up on criminal theft charges for his actions in game 5 of the 2006 Finals.
ReplyDeleteehh some of us enjoy talking about the business side. If you don't, move along.
ReplyDeleteMaking embellishment an actual penalty keeps most REALLY overt stuff out.
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine if soccer players started getting penalties for diving!
Good point. Even when you have a great segment like the Wyatt choir, they run it in the ground after 3 hours. Vince should turn the first hour of RAW into some sort of Prime Time Wrestling style recap show.
ReplyDeleteReggie Miller sticking his frigging skinny as 10 foot tall leg way out when shooting a three fishing for a foul.
ReplyDeleteWell, he didn't even know what the Network was, but he was adamant about watching Cena vs. Bryan.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the kiddies are watching any of that stuff either.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but having guys wrestle in "The Devil's Playground" and come out unmarked and wrestle the next night on RAW is even worse.
ReplyDeleteWell, Ziggler is obviously a superior worker for one. The other is I think Ryder was made an example of to keep the rest toeing the line.
ReplyDeleteHe doesnt even seem to have a flapping head full of lies.
ReplyDeleteBecause in the 80's people that didn't watch WWF knew Hogan. Same with the 90's and Austin/Rock. It is great to have a player that the fans love, but the mainstream is where the money really starts coming in.
ReplyDeleteThis show sucks! Nary a midget wrestler to be found anywhere!
ReplyDeleteI hate to beat a dead horse, sound like a broken record etc. . . But WWE has one bullet in the chamber that could get people watching again and that my friends is The John Cena Heel Turn.
ReplyDeleteYou answered yourself in the first line.
ReplyDeleteDepression could be genetic.
ReplyDeleteWell, okay, sure...if we have another massive boom in the general popularity of wrestling that would indeed change things. Otherwise what difference does it make if someone who doesn't like wrestling recognizes the name Daniel Bryan?
ReplyDeleteThat had the bullet in 2011 and tossed it out.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed it also...the first 678 network threads.
ReplyDeleteI don't think John Cena is a big enough star to make any new viewers out of turning heel.
ReplyDeleteWhat the WWE does to guys who get over without being given permissions so to speak, is akin to a pitcher showing he can be a decent 3rd or 4th starter and the team saying "nah, you'll be in the bullpen doing mop up because that's where we say you'll be". Ryder was selling a lot of merch at his peak and I can't fathom why they would intentionally NOT want to make money. Ride it out and squeeze every penny from it. He shouldn't be a top guy, but solid midcard acts who can move merch don't exactly grow on trees.
ReplyDeleteFair enough, but keep in mind that over the past few weeks we've seen people on this blog constantly saying stuff like, "Why are they adding all these stupid Network exclusives? Post Prime Time Wrestling!" We wouldn't be having that argument if the WWE just assumed that fans want to watch the historical content. It just doesn't seem like most of their attention is going in that direction.
ReplyDeletePlus the writing and PG limitations would suck the air out of it REALLY fast.
ReplyDeleteHired goons?
ReplyDeleteA ton of steroid references in this rant. Lyle Alzado is a text book cautionary tale about the dangers of juicing.
ReplyDeleteWrestlecrap only having a few inductions at a time was still alive to me. Heck, even after the original shut down, I was on the mailing list for the brief time where the site was completely down.
ReplyDeleteIt would be really hard to screw up. A heel Cena vs. Bryan feud would be mega gigantic over. I'm sure the "creative" team could promptly find a way to screw it up however.
ReplyDeleteI watched the 'presser' Big E did after losing the IC belt to Barrett. He was hilarious and still put over the loss as painful. That guy on real WWE TV would be great.
ReplyDeleteHow would it be hard to screw up? The limitations that would be placed on Cena's ability to play the necessary "fuck you fans" heel would leave a ton of room for him to wind up being just as much of a shitty and boring of a heel as he is as a face.
ReplyDeleteCena trashes guys and no sells losses all the time.
ReplyDeleteIt helps to be entertaining when you do it.
ReplyDeleteThat's a valid point. I actually feel like the heels in general have been the biggest victims of Era PG as they come off as completely neutered compared to what the previous generation was doing.
ReplyDeleteRetire the cage in all forms until blood is back.
ReplyDeleteYou could have just called...
ReplyDeleteOh, no doubt. Sometimes it's kinda strange to think how talented some guys were, yet never managed to make it.
ReplyDeleteWithout reading through all the comments, I'll just say the idea that the network is failing is, at this point, ridiculous. This is a new medium for many fans. Sure, some may be familiar with stuff like the MLB Audio On-Demand or whatever, but I'm willing to be the idea of watching stuff on your computer is still somewhat new to a lot of people. I think a year or so from now is a better time to judge the success or failure of the network.
ReplyDeleteSo, in other words: Let's let it play out and see where it goes.
The one premise that I really disagree with is that most hardcore fans (like us here are our similar ilk) already buying multiple ppvs. We were just streaming them for free. Now at least they are getting 10 bucks a month from all of us by bundling the new ppvs with library archive. That's a net gain from a devoted audience that was paying nothing.
ReplyDeleteMeh, they managed to make plenty of interesting heels in the 80's and early 90's when they were still very PG. They just don't know how to make the heels into interesting characters/get them heat today.
ReplyDeleteBut really, they aren't going to let Cena and go out ripping the fans and bashing the kiddies or anything along the lines of Hogan's BATB promo, so what becomes the purpose of his heel character that's supposed to be the key to driving a new boom? It's not like he's a big enough celebrity/hero that the mere act of turning him heel is going to pique anyones interest like Hogan's turn did.
Yeah, I stopped buying shows years ago.
ReplyDeleteThe whole "I don't want to watch this on my computer" mentality is also hurting them. Not only can you watch it on your TV but if you leave the TV to go outside or eat or use the bathroom etc you can continue watching on your tablet, then when you get back in the TV room just throw it back on the tube. Too many people don't get how all that works which blows my mind but its a real issue.
ReplyDeleteDude I went to an indy show about a month ago I would be surprised if half those people could set up an email address.
ReplyDeleteRight. I mean I forked out for the occasional rumble or mania, but there is no way I would have paid for extreme rules, and there is no way I would be about to buy payback. This way, at least they're getting some cash from me now, which frankly bases on the quality of the network, I'm more than happy to pay.
ReplyDeleteI have a great QOTD meekin.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing that makes me happy about this is that almost never the target demo for anything the wwe does anymore and I have to bitch about how it sucks. With this network, whether it was on purpose or not, I'm the target demo and I fucking love it.
ReplyDeleteMy PPV viewing was always - friend with a black box to horse track that showed PPV for $1 entry fee to bar that showed PPV (Fox and Hound) to finally the above stated method. I paid for Rumble and Mania and maybe the occasional random PPV.
ReplyDeleteI'll be the one to say it this time. The network is "failing" because Prime Time Wrestling isn't up there
ReplyDeleteThere are seriously times when I almost feel like I'm ripping them off only paying $9.99. It's that good.
ReplyDeleteOh, absolutely. I've written this before on here, but I know of two major wrestling fans at work, who have literally no chance to set up and navigate the network. I mean, like none, whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteI would occasionally get Mania and RR, but there was almost no chance I was getting anything else.
ReplyDeleteWho was he cheering for?
ReplyDeleteWould probably help if lifelong fans like myself could sign up and not be blocked, with the network's software thinking my home in Wisconsin is outside the U.S. (And it's not like I'm close to the border either. I'm a stone's throw from Illinois.)
ReplyDeletethis. it's the same in football (or "soccer", if you will), too. playing a little bit "dirty" is just part of the way same players (or even teams) play.
ReplyDeleteor the New Age Outlaws being corporate puppets ... that pop the crowd going with their whole introduction.
ReplyDeleteThat's some A+ Scott Keith right there! Also the Bushwhackers had a good match? Looking forward to checking this show out.
ReplyDeleteit is
ReplyDeleteas a soccer fan I would love it. One reason I enjoy the English Premier League vs. most other soccer and espcially over the theatrical garbage that south america and Italy play is that many times the refs look at a dive in the EPL and just tell the idiot to get his ass up and play.
ReplyDeleteHow the hell is Alzado dead and Hogan still walking around?
ReplyDeleteAlzado didn't say his prayers?
ReplyDelete