Hi Scott,
Long time, first time, etc... Is there a summary anywhere of the root cause of the Heyman and Cornette beef you mentioned in the Clash VI rant? My Google-fu is pointing to booking disputes focused on ECW's existence, which was obviously well after 1989, and doesn't explain the references to a banana that I've seen.
Thanks in advance,
Donald
Yeah, OK, the beef. Essentially they didn't get along well in WCW but worked together, and the actual feud started when Paul poached the Gangstas away from SMW in the middle of a big push and all this bad blood came out between them. Everything after that was basically stubborn refusal to bury the hatchet on both sides.
The banana thing is old school RSPW urban legend supposedly regarding a videotape of Cornette doing stuff with a banana...weird stuff...butt stuff. I believe Heyman picked at that thread in some shoot interviews as well to really give Cornette the gears. I have not seen said tape and have no desire to do so.
I don't think Cornette squashed that beef so much as he realized that he hated Vince Russo much, much more.
ReplyDeleteThe banana may explain 'Cornette Face'
ReplyDeleteNot quite 100% accurate Scott...
ReplyDelete1: Cornette was basically finishing up the Gangstas, partially because he'd done all he could do with them, and partially because they were getting the wrong kind of heat in Smoky Mountain. He had NO problems with the Gangstas going up to ECW, but where he became unhappy was Paul telling him "If they miss dates, I won't use them", and (allegedly) Paul telling them to come start earlier than expected. As a result, they missed a house show or two, and then tried to lie to Cornette about why they missed. Jim just told them to go away as a result.
2: Heyman wanted to bring in Cornette for a surprise spot during the Lawler/Dreamer feud. Cornette was okay with it, on two conditions. 1: Cornette wanted NO PAY for the show, and 2: Heyman needed to apologize to Dennis Coralluzzo for the NWA title screwjob and allow his guys to work for Dennis on the side. Heyman agreed, Cornette went in and did the spot, and Heyman broke BOTH of the stipulations before Cornette was even back on the plane ride home.
Now, I can't speak to Heyman's opinion on the matter, but Cornette's is basically "He's the lyingest liar who ever lied...", and that Heyman is generally incapable of telling the truth. But as Myron states below, Cornette's hatred of one Vince Russo has eclipsed his former hatred of Paul... to where Cornette's basically said he'd kiss Paul E, open mouth, before he'd want to be in the same room as Russo.
(And apologies for that last mental picture.)
The banana story is apparently possibly related to a video circulated at the time of Cornette's first divorce involving strippers, S&M, and exactly what you think when you try to put "banana Jim Cornette" together in a sentence not involving DX pulling a rib on him on RAW by coming to the announce table eating said fruit.
ReplyDeleteThat's a long sentence.
Also, to take the banana story out of your head- from Cornette's AMA on Reddit last month:
ReplyDelete"I actually took my wife to the amusement park in Charlotte on a rare day off, and suddenly found myself in line behind Ricky & Robert on the "Win a Date with the R&R Express" deal at one of the rides--we slipped out the "in" line and left the park. If we had been seen, R&R woud have had to beat me up for real in public or we would have all been fired--as it should be today."
http://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/20mxqs/i_am_jim_cornette_ama/?limit=500
Of all the shittiest teams to have any beef over only the Ding Dongs would be worse than the Gangstas
ReplyDelete"as it should be today."
ReplyDeleteMy main issue with Cornette in a nutshell.
SMW was running a really hot angle with them, though, regardless of in-ring ability (none). Cornette had every right to be pissed off, but for both to hold a grudge so long is a bit too much.
ReplyDeleteWell, now bananas are ruined for me forever.
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong with kayfabe, as long as it doesn't mean booking separate flights for heels and faces.
ReplyDeleteActually Cornette was trying to get rid of them due to them being TOO good at their jobs; the crowds were legit afraid of being around them and attendance was plummeting.
ReplyDeleteI know they're really shitty...but back then, I thought the Gangstas were pretty cool. But definitely a gimmick with a short shelf-life.
ReplyDeleteTrue but Cornette just takes it way too seriously. Kayfabe is never again going to be like it once was.
ReplyDeleteImagine if they were around today? FOX News would have a field day!
ReplyDeleteCornette gonna Cornette.
ReplyDeleteI remember there was always a rumor floating around that Heyman was "light in his loafers", but I didn't read too much into it.
ReplyDeleteNew Jack was/is naturally funny.
ReplyDeleteHis beef with Cabana and 5 Dollar Wrestling is ridiculous, like Scorcese getting pissy with the Mystery Science Theater crew would be.
ReplyDeleteYeah I have all the SMW shows and New Jack was great at cheap heat (in a good way) but in ring...ugh. Great entrance in ECW though.
ReplyDeleteWhich in turn brings new meaning to "fuck this company."
ReplyDeleteAlso I find it funny that New Jack claimed Jim was a racist on ECW TV when we now know he has a Sean Penn level hatred for conservatives.
ReplyDeleteNot saying all conservatives are racists.
I fly down to Orlando quite a bit on Jet Blue and I see wrestlers flying together all the time. Can you imagine using Cornette's logic and fighting in the airport?
ReplyDeleteHe had fantastic natural charisma and mic skills.
ReplyDeleteFor better or worse today's ultra PC environment would never allow such a gimmick on the national stage.
ReplyDeleteIf this was the Attitude Era, Vince McMahon would totally add a Donald Sterling element to his character.
ReplyDeleteTopical!
TNA had LAX out there doing pretty much the same gimmick, and that persisted well into 2010. They even tried a watered down revival with the mexican america shit as recently as late 2011.
ReplyDeleteNah, they'd just have to repeatedly point out how it's satire and then they'd be good. Then they'd fire New Jack and keep Saed on the roster for years without actually using him.
ReplyDeleteShould have clarified non-satire. Cryme Tyme was still fun I thought because both guys embraced their roles and had a good time.
ReplyDeleteThat's true dedication to hating a man. You gotta respect that. It makes me sad when you see, say, a Joker vs Superman story. Keep focus!
ReplyDeleteI remember hbk goofing on cornette on raw in 1997. He had a bushell of bananas and was just eating them in front of jc, throwing the peels at him and asking him if he wanted some. I figured it was some kind of inside gag and I thought a read online that week something about cornette using bananas in sex came out through some divorce paper work. Them I also heard the tape rumor later. Gross.
ReplyDeleteThe Gangstas weren't satirical? I haven't seen them, but the two-count win due to affirmative action sounds like it to me.
ReplyDeleteWell their promos sure didn't sound satirical. And the 2 count thing wasn't played for laughs either but in all honesty I didn't like that part of the angle anyway.
ReplyDeleteI need to youtube them or something, but Jesus, that bit played straight sounds like death.
ReplyDeleteAs Cornette learned way too late.
ReplyDeleteNice american dad reference scott.
ReplyDeleteI believe he had calmed down about Russo at one point, having gone from something like "I'm determined to outlive him just so I can piss on his grave" to (perhaps the YouShoot video) saying that he and Vince could actually talk, but not about wrestling.
ReplyDeleteHe's back on the grave piss bandwagon.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Cornette should talk to anyone about wrestling, it's not good for his mental health.
ReplyDeleteCan someone explain me The gangstas issue on SMW?
ReplyDeleteAre you saying every time you go eat a delicious banana you'll be thinking about some ring rat with an old 80's vcr camcorder filming Jim Cornette crawling around masturbating with a banana stuck in plump hairy ass?
ReplyDeleteYikes...sounds like someone has a copy of the tape!
ReplyDeleteImagine being Jim Cornette. Imagine living with that much rage & bitterness and hatred. Everyday life must just be absolute torture for him
ReplyDelete"SMW was the birthplace of the controversial "Gangstas" gimmick, where the African American wrestlers New Jack, Mustafa and "Uptown" D'Lo Brown would cut promos about activist Medgar Evers and O.J. Simpson to infuriate the southern white crowd. They would use fried chicken and watermelons as props and win matches as a result of a two count (rather than the conventional three count), purportedly due to Affirmative Action."
ReplyDeleteEventually the crowds hated them so much they stopped coming to the shows.
Hey! Save those for Jim!
ReplyDeleteTo my knowledge, New Jack isn't actually trained as a wrestler, correct?
ReplyDeleteThat's why he uses bananas for relief.
ReplyDeleteThere's a chapter on Jericho's dedicated on telling a story he had with Jim.They went on dinner and asked 20 burgers(he was with the guys of SMW).The girls laughed and he started to have attack,swearing and breaking everything.
ReplyDeleteThe Wendy's Affair.
ReplyDeleteHe was trained by Ray Candy.
ReplyDeleteTenessee is a strange place.
ReplyDeleteHaha...I never heard that Affirmative Action/Two Count thing. That's hilarious!
ReplyDeleteThat's a very famous story, Cornette tells it proudly. Just like he proudly talks about how he has dreams where he's murdering Vince Russo. I mean, Russo is an idiot and the worst booker in wrestling history, but PROUD that you fantasise about killing him? sheesh.
ReplyDeleteIf only he wouldn't violently stab people all the time...
ReplyDeleteVideo link,please?
ReplyDeletehttps://youtube.com/watch?v=sozxlNfwFYQ
ReplyDeleteI don't remember stabbings in this one, but back in they heyday of wrestlinggonewrong, i remember his doozy of a match with Gypsy Joe.
ReplyDeleteThanks, i'll check that out when i get home. The announcers mixing up Louisiana and Los Angeles sounds like another bit that would fit in with Cryme Tyme (maybe with Fandango as a their D'Lo?)
ReplyDeleteI talked to him last year at a small comic convention and he was pleasant enough but then again I didn't challenge him on his opinions.
ReplyDeleteTrust me, NONE of their gimmick was played for comedy.
ReplyDeleteTeam Heyman.
ReplyDeleteI guess maybe the southern audience wouldn't be able to appreciate the humor since it's making fun of their mindset? That's deeply sad.
ReplyDeleteNeed to check with Jericho
ReplyDeleteCornette said on a shoot that Paul E and him in a fight, he would work it. If it was him and Russo, it would be a straight shoot.
ReplyDeleteThat one was just a dumbass ring announcer with a room temp IQ, according to Cornette.
ReplyDeleteHa, awesome.
ReplyDeleteHe also gives a TON of credit to Ricky Morton, Tommy Rich, and Tracy Smothers (IIRC on Smothers) for rounding out his training. No, he didn't go out to exchange armbars and hip tosses, but I bet he could have if the gimmick "mod/change" was right.
ReplyDeleteAnd there's always Vic Grimes.
ReplyDeleteAnd it seems like Jim is fine with Paul now. He respects his talent, work, etc... He just thinks he's a huge liar.
ReplyDeleteAlso very correct.
ReplyDeleteWikipedia dropped the ball on this one.
ReplyDeleteNew Jack said in one of his shoots that when he went to get paid on his last day in SMW, he heard Cornette ranting about him and Mustafa and screaming n and such. It's New Jack, so it's probably bullshit, but that's where the racist stuff originated.
ReplyDeleteI think it was Cornette's second YouShoot where that stuff came up. But it's been a while since I watched them, so I don't remember which one for certain.
ReplyDeleteAlso, one of Cornette's other KC vids (InVasion?) had the Gangstas drop in on Cornette during the shoot, and they shot the shit for a while. Neither has any real heat with the other, and it was a fun little "bonus", but nothing memorable came off of it.
Seems like they both left a lot of MONEY ON THE TABLE in 1995 by not doing a SMW v. ECW feud.
ReplyDeleteIt's hyperbole to say a guy is the "worst wrestler. " that hyperbole doesn't hold for Anarquia.
ReplyDeleteI flew into Orlando in 2011and lo and behold Angle and Jarrett were traveling together.
ReplyDeleteIt started off okay, it seems to have descended into pure self-indulgence lately. AS a left-wing guy who's never beleived in god, i ought to really enjoy it, but the way he puts his beleifs across is just so self-righteous he's impossible to agree with, even if your views are mostly the same as his.
ReplyDeletewhat? kayfabe is awesome.
ReplyDeleteI love the interview Steamboat does after the main event, sweating to buggery and expressing his relief he's finally pinned Flair...only to be told Flair's foot was on the rope and his change in mood to ''Oh Christ, not again...'' is so human it makes you want to pat the guy on his back and reassure him it's OK.
ReplyDeleteSo what was the deal with the Warrior/Rude finish being copied? Did they have the PPV on backstage and decide ''hey, that's good! Let's nick it!''
I've heard about it, but only because when when Cornette was in RoH, Kevin Steen cut a promo while carrying a tennis racket and eating a banana.
ReplyDeleteok i'll grant you that. I still find it funny that even 8 years in, those anti-cena fans STILL haven't caught on that being super loud actually HELPS Cena. It always gives all of his matches nuclear heat, and a unique atmosphere and only Cena can bring to the table. As long as they don't sit on their hands, nothing will change.
ReplyDeletePiper telling the story of how Schultz tried to do a run-in to shoot on Mr. T, only to be tipped off in advance so the police-security grabbed him before he got to the ring is amazing.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember him saying something to the effect that he and Heyman don't really get along very well personally, and have different views about how the wrestling business should operate, but that Cornette at least respects Heyman as a performer and guy who's been around the business and put in his work (as opposed to Russo).
ReplyDeleteI'd be curious to see the Cornette vid. (no homo)
ReplyDeleteAnd watch a 56 minute 2/3 falls match to get to the screwy finish.
ReplyDeleteI actually think that's kind of stupid. Wouldn't having wrestlers beating up each other and managers constantly outside of the ring, or even the arena, just start to make people wonder why they aren't getting cited/arrested for assault, disorderly conduct, etc.?
ReplyDeleteRusso is hardly the worst booker in history. He had his run, many bookers can't say that.
ReplyDeleteHow did the Road Warriors turn face again? Just a few months before they almost murdered Dusty Rhodes and probably even got the kayfabe credit for running him out of the promotion. Now they're getting screwed out of the titles and i can't recall the Point A to Point B turn.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, but it can't be stranger than Taker attempting to murder Paul Bearer with concrete, and turning back face 2 weeks later just for threatening Paul Heyman.
ReplyDeleteThe Hogan-Savage 85' feud was amazing. There second battle from MSG is a bloodbath.
ReplyDeleteWell, Cornette has stated that he's tried to lay off some of that stuff and live a little healthier as well.
ReplyDeleteMainly so he can outlive Vince Russo and piss on his grave.
the southern audiences were too busy just hating them for being loud and black. That's why the gimmick worked. It capitalized on the natural prejudices of the SMW audience
ReplyDeleteI bet as soon as Angle went to the wash-room Jarrett jumped in his seat.
ReplyDeleteA year and a half from now.
ReplyDeleteWell DX in 1997 ate bananas on commentary with cornette there as a goof shoot on him. The tape apparently exists and many of the old southern wrestlers have verified it
ReplyDeleteIf he didn't take up half his podcasts complaining about republicans, Russo or bs talk with the clueless Alice, it might be more interesting. Also, please tell cornette nobody cares about Kenny bolin as much as he does...
ReplyDeleteAgree!!! Read my comment above Mr. Bat
ReplyDeleteHow come cornette never gets shit for his obvious low class race baiting?? I know Bruce Mitchell gave him some in the torch back in 93 and cornette went nuts on him, as bad as he has about russo
ReplyDeleteTeddy Long seems like a shoo-in for a future HOF class.
ReplyDeleteI've heard so many stories about new Jack going through a crowd during ECW shows and getting into fights with male fans who brought their girlfriends. Apparently new jack thought it was OK to treat them like his rats and try and get them to go backstage with him for some loving
ReplyDeleteInoki meant absolutely nothing to American audiences, except to the few who remembered his fight with Ali, and that fiasco was not a mark in his favor. If Schultz was considered a truly valuable piece of the future, they would have found somebody else for that match.
ReplyDeleteInoki came over to the WWF a few times in the early days of expansion. One of his other MSG appearances was a win over the immortal Charlie Fulton. Yes, Inoki flew halfway around the world to defeat Charlie Fulton in a 3-minute squash. That's the level of people on the totem pole they tended to sacrifice to him.
I don't recall a hard-and-fast turn. They just started getting more cheers (hell, the fans never really stopped to begin with) and feuding with the Samoan Swat Team.
ReplyDeleteWhen Sting and Luger were given the ball, they drew worse. When Sting was champ, 6K in the Omni would have been cause for celebration.
ReplyDeleteCornette's wussy manager character wouldn't have picked a fight, he would've mouthed off to Ricky and Robert and then cowered away when they threatened to retaliate. Would've been a fun little treat for any wrestling fans at the park that day.
ReplyDeleteScott was a booking genius in his day but time had passed him by. The idea of a live TV special was probably foreign to him. Not excusing it, but I understand it.
ReplyDeleteWell, Cornette did get rats.
ReplyDeleteI'll give 'em a pass for that. Neither one was in WCW in '89. And keep in mind that in 1994 you didn't have thehistoryofwwe.com or wrestlingdata to fire up, and wrestling records were never really kept the way sports records were. I was surprised Heenan even knew (or was clued in about) the significance of the double chickenwing at all.
ReplyDeleteI still love that Mexican America had no actual Mexicans in it.
ReplyDeleteSomebody compared it to having a Nazi stable that consisted of.
A guy from Philadelphia of German descent.
A guy from Wisconsin who was half-German.
An Austrian lady.
And a Korean chick who kinda looked white. (Seriously, Sarita is a white Canadian, she's super hot and a great wrestler, but she's as Mexican as El Generico).
His completely blind, unquestioning acceptance of that being Jerry Lawler's actual "mother" is the highlight. "You can tell she takes a lot better care of herself than Helen Hart..."
ReplyDeleteDo people enjoy plays less because they know about the Three/Five Act structure?
ReplyDeleteDo people enjoy music less because they know about key changes?
Do people enjoy fine art less because they know about chiaroscuro?
Do people enjoy books less because they know about the hero's journey?
"They went on dinner and asked 20 burgers(he was with the guys of SMW)."
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what this sentence means.
And Heyman mocked some of Cornette's old school angles in ECW, I believe.
ReplyDeleteHe was running a gimmick/angle that he knew would draw.
ReplyDeleteWell, for a month or two at least.
ReplyDeleteBearer was Undertaker's weakness so it was understandable necessary murder. Like when you kill your wife so she doesn't take half your shit in a divorce.
ReplyDeleteWell, George South has probably done something idiotic at some point.
ReplyDeleteIn his shoots, Cornette has some great insights but he gets so fucking annoyning after like 20 minutes tho. We get it dude, you don't like sports entertainment, you think Vince Russo us the devil, you don't play well with others, and you are confrontational.
ReplyDeleteDude, speaking as someone who has seen every Law & Order episode, THAT NEVER WORKS.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think he walks around with produce shoved up his ass all day.
ReplyDeleteOJ made people think it was easier than it was.
ReplyDeleteI'd pay good money to see a Corn5/Russo fight m it'd be an epic slap fight
ReplyDeleteI can't stand him, honestly. I don't care how much you know about wrestling, or what issues you have in your life. The way he is is no way to go through life. I'm sure he hates the fact that wrestling saw it's biggest boom with Russo booking a Sports Entertainment style product, but get over it.
ReplyDeleteThink of the children!
ReplyDeleteWhat's the reference? I'm an AD fan but am completely missing it
ReplyDeleteHe is stiff in the ring.
ReplyDeleteThat's not even a matter of homo vs. nohomo. That's just weird, man.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure everyone in this thread would watch a couple minutes of it if it were ever found.
ReplyDeleteI'm a little scared of Cornette now.
ReplyDeleteThe flair/steamboat match is fucking spectacular, but greatest match ever?!?!
ReplyDeleteHe's the top draw, he could have everything wrestling related.
ReplyDeleteOh poor Vic......
ReplyDeleteGuessing it's "butt stuff" but I don't recall that at all from AD...oh well
ReplyDeleteKeller says that when his relationship with Cornette fell apaet, Cornette left some terrible for him that included talking about Kellers family. I'm morbidly curious about what he said
ReplyDeleteYep. I don't even know if Heyman dislikes Cornette aside from Cornette not liking him. Heyman strikes me as not caring. I also get the impression that Cornette doesn't really care all that much anymore since he's no longer in the business and Heyman's not in a position of (booking) power.
ReplyDeleteI certainly would. Morbid curiosity and stuff.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that is so difficult about comparing matches, is that there are so many different types, spanning many eras. I mean, how do you compare Flair-Steamboat to Hart-Austin at WM XIII?
ReplyDeleteIm actually the (maybe) 5% that prefers their Chi-Town Rumble match out of the 3
ReplyDeleteIt worked in getting them heat... but in their case it was the "We don't want to see you" heat, the kind that kills towns.
ReplyDeleteI do remember Cornette talking about a spot show where the cops came into the locker room, told him the Gangstas were NOT going to be wrestling that night, and actually escorted them to their car, following them until they were completely out of the city.
Lol.
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to piss him off fuck up his Wendy's burger.
ReplyDeleteI'll translate:
ReplyDelete"Cornette and the SMW crew went to a Wendy's drive-thru for dinner, where he ordered twenty burgers."
He's not completely fluent in English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFTTZ9E_e2Y
ReplyDeleteI do love the story he has in Flair's book. Apparently Flair was PISSED at something, and told South "We're going long today."
ReplyDeleteResult: A semi-famous TV match, with South playing the role of Ricky Steamboat. The best part is South wondering "What if I decided to pin Flair, and ran out of the studio with the World Title?"
Im sure there is a genuine dislike there but the Russo thing strikes me primarily as jealously
ReplyDeleteWRONG!!! The best movies sometimes gross very little. Just because something doesn't draw well or make a lot of money doesn't mean it was a bad product. PEOPLE ARE STUPID and have horrid taste. Should the booking committee and Flair be blamed for George Scott not wanting to promote the event? I don't think so. The Turner people had no idea how to run that company regardless if Hogan or Flair or the nWo was going gang busters or not. Flair was REALLY over as a face in '89...watch some of his matches on the Main Event or the Power Hour. They made a mistake turning him in early 1990.
ReplyDeleteHow do you compare those to Alicia Fox vs. Melina?
ReplyDeleteI'm a Chi-Town Rumble guy myself
ReplyDeleteCornette discussed this fantasy scenario and said it wouldn't have worked as they were both very different promotions and SMW guys wouldn't get over in Philly and the ECW guys wouldn't get over in Knoxville.
ReplyDeleteAnyone look at the upcoming WWE Network? It includes different stuff like a random In Your House and the Chi-Town Rumble
ReplyDeleteCornette is nuts. At one point there was (man am I dating myself), what I guess you'd describe as a phone messaging service that doubled as a BB. I had access to it, pissed off Cornette, and he cut a promo on me. I died laughing.
ReplyDeleteHell yea. If you can't tell by now by my username and avatar, I'm a huge 90's Japanese garbage wrestling fan
ReplyDeleteEh, I kinda like Bolin and he makes the podcast entertaining and is certainly better than that female co-host. Though, I do agree that Cornette should talk about different things, I remember in one episode he reviewed TNA Impact and he should do more stuff like that in his podcast.
ReplyDeleteOnly the Nature Boy could draw 5,000 people in the Superdome and still have the IWC blame everyone and everything but him.
ReplyDeleteImagine if Lex Luger won the title at Starrcade '88 and he defends his title here against say The Great Muta and he draws 5K. How much shit would he have taken for that poor house? And where did i say it was a bad product exactly?
Just checking out the attendance numbers for the whopping 2 PPV's that Sting went into as World Champ in 1990 he drew better than that in Chicago & St.Louis for Halloween Havoc & Starrcade. Same goes for Lex Luger in 1991.
ReplyDeleteBy then WCW was running most of their shows in 10,000 or less seat arenas which they drew well in to reduce costs and of course the unsightly view of any empty seats.
With all the smarmy characters in wrestling, isn't it a wonder Corny's never had the shit kicked out of him?
ReplyDeleteThe WrestleWar '89 match is my favorite, although all three are a ton of fun.
ReplyDeleteBut I think Heyman cutting promos on SMW in Knoxville and leading the ECW army would have fired up the Southern marks, and Cornette leading the SMW troops into the Bingo hall would have fired up the ECW so-called smarks.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, it probably wouldn't have drawn money so much as been an interesting bootleg video to buy later on.
He probably has.
ReplyDeleteI think they definitely built some momentum up though as it went on.
ReplyDeleteThe 1989 GAB Bash didn't draw well on PPV, but it did the best gate and paid attendance numbers WCW would do again until 1994 and the house show business was strong in the period.
It's kind of hard to say, but who knows? Maybe if they'd continued to establish themselves as an alternative to the WWF, they'd done better. 1990 is where they really started to 'WWF-ize' things with all the stupid gimmicks and a much more WWF like production style and I think that probably hurt them more in the long run.
True, but I'd imagine he'd have spun in out in any of the hundreds of shoots he's done
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure he got stabbed by a crazy fan during his Mid South or World Class runs. Maybe he's figured out how to avoid these situations -- despite constantly running his mouth.
ReplyDeleteTwo PPVs or an entire run of house shows? Which provides more information?
ReplyDeleteIt was implied by your remarks that the booking committee (i.e. Flair) was at fault for the gate. If George Scott and company didn't want to promote it, then it had nothing to do with Flair. All the story lines worked in '89 and that's ALL I CARE ABOUT. Flair-Steamboat is like the Citizen Kane of wrestling, won't draw much of a crowd compared to Jaws/Star Wars (i.e. Cena/Hogan), but it's the best! The End!
ReplyDeleteMy liberal New York bias at work. "People won't fall for this, it's so obvious." Makes me wonder about Christmas with a Capital C and the evil religion-destroying atheist in it.
ReplyDeleteBill O'Reilly will find out about them any day now.
ReplyDeleteSimple for me at least: The best match of all time has a clear good guy and a clear bad guy wrapped up in a brilliant story, settling their dispute in a sanctioned confrontation with a stipulation, featuring great action, a great story, genuine-seeming tension and emotion, and stakes represented by either an important title belt or a great deal of personal pride (and in most cases both).
ReplyDeleteWhatever match represents that blurb above perfectly should really be considered GOAT. Obviously everything is subjective and sometimes one facet is more important while another is irrelevant, but thats the best guideline. Matches that fit that would be like Cena/Punk, Flair/most, Savage/Steamboat, Rock/Austin, and Jericho/Michaels.
Give me the house show info for both and let's see. I don't doubt that 89 may have outdrawn 1990 & 1991 on ticket sales but i don't have those figures readily available.
ReplyDeleteNo one ever really booed them. Even when they beat the Midnights for the belts most of the crowd was cheering. The bookers just finally said fcuk it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a big fan of Flair/Steamboat matches. We chose WM V instead. Was Hogan-Savage a technical masterpiece? No, but it has everything I like my wrestling to be. Nothing wrong with technical masterpieces but you have to have the other stuff also, imo.
ReplyDeleteI see what you did there.
ReplyDeleteChanting "Cena Sucks" is still chanting Cena's name. He's getting 100% of the crowd reaction. Chant for the opponent, FFS. I think that's only happened with CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, which is telling in and of itself.
ReplyDeleteI think at this point the people who don't like him enjoy saying "fuck you Cena" at his character even more than they would enjoy seeing him shunted off the card.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on this, only because I was a HUGE Steamboat mark back then and was beyond elated when he won the title.
ReplyDeleteHey, BACK OFF. That's MY line.
ReplyDeletehis match against Hogan on "Hulkamania 1" is one of my favorite Hulk matches ever.
ReplyDeleteI seem to recall he was a born-again Christian acting as a heel on the indy circuit back in the early 90s, wrestling Italian Stallion in front of packed armories with upwards of 100 fans.
ReplyDeleteFor me, nothing tops "those gimmicks you get in the mail called bills". Hell, "gimmicks" in general.
ReplyDeleteFlair/Steamboat didn't have a clear good guy/bad guy, because the crowds mostly cheered Flair, who was supposed to be the heel, in at least two out of the three matches.
ReplyDeleteJust coincidence, I'd assume.
ReplyDeleteNo, that's not "The End," no matter how many all-caps sentences you throw on. Snrub is right about the double standard.
ReplyDeleteNow if your argument is that we, as fans, should not give a single shit who "draws" or doesn't, I agree 100 percent. But since most online like to throw out the "what draws money" arguments, let's be fair about it and admit that 1989 babyface Flair wasn't a draw. At all. And that his reluctance to help establish Luger and even Sting to a point hurt WCW's business.
From a pure art standpoint, while I think Flair/Funk was overrated, nobody can deny how good the main event picture was throughout '89. Flair, Steamboat, Funk, Muta, Sting and Luger were on fire.
The ratings for Sting's Clashes were better. And with worse creative.
ReplyDeleteClash 12, headlined by Sting, drew the third-biggest rating in Clash history. Clash 13, headlined by Flair (with no Sting on the card) drew the third lowest rating to that point in Clash history.
Believe it or not, the initial intrigue over the Black Scorpion was very, very hot.
ReplyDeleteBy Clash 13, which is possibly the worst major show in history until the Russo Era, that of course was all undone.
Well you got me there.
ReplyDeleteThe network version is missing a bunch of these matches
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm watching it just now following along with Scott's review and was pretty startled when it skipped the 3 matches after the Junkyard Dog one.
ReplyDeleteThe hell...I mean don't get me wrong cutting sheik and the orton matches aren't going to make me shed any tears except for completeness but why the Road Warriors match?
ReplyDeleteI assumed the matches missing from the Network version weren't aired on TV, but I guess they were, unless Scott somehow has some special tape with the full event that no one else ever saw.
ReplyDeleteAnd just to throw my vote into things, I consider this Flair/Steamboat match to be the best wrestling match ever, too.