Hey Scott,
I was just listening to a Justin Credible shoot trailer. I know you used to consider him a factor in the Death of ECW but in every other account of the company, he basically isn't even mentioned. With over a decade of hindsight, do you still believe ECW Non-JC would've lasted longer than it did. On a related note, why isn't JC more recognized than he is? He is a kinda-sorta Clique member and you'd think that'd be enough to get a mention every now and again, if not a job either training or as enhancement.
Thoughts?
He was a factor in the company not getting any bigger with him on top, but I don't think anyone considers him important enough to kill a company. It was 100% Spike TV killing the company. As for why he didn't end up as a trainer or whatever, I get the feeling he doesn't have the right connections any longer. It's not like he was super tight with anyone but Heyman. I guess we'll have to watch the shoot interview to find out!
He was on Austin's podcast not long ago, it was a good listen.
ReplyDeleteAnd ironically Spike is now saving a wrestling company.
ReplyDeleteHe kinda strikes me as a Larry Zbyszko-type champ, in that Raven, Douglas, Snow, Taz, and Awesome had already left the company, RVD was hurt, and Dreamer swore up and down that he didn't want the belt. Paul needed to put the strap on someone who wasn't going anywhere (literally speaking).
ReplyDeleteSorta like HHH before the Foley series: Paul tried everything to get us to hate him, all to a collective "meh." Not JC's fault, really--he just wasn't that type of guy.
Sorry but if Justin Credible is your only choice left for a top guy Paul should have closed shop after Awesome left.
ReplyDeleteI actually came out of the last shoot liking him pretty well as a person, even though he was about the most boring wrestler ever.
ReplyDeleteWhoever taught Paul Heyman how to balance the books killed ECW. Justin Credible, World Champion just put it in the ICU. But lets face it...That patient was already terminal.
ReplyDeleteyeah, I second that. Not a big Credible fan at all, and I thought he came across pretty good on there.
ReplyDeleteI always sort of liked him as ECW champ. Mainly because he wore jorts.
ReplyDeletenot the right connections?
ReplyDeleteYO, HE WAS DEALIN' WITH THE XFACTOR
so you're the guy keeping cena in business
ReplyDeleteJorts just seemed ECW appropriate.
ReplyDeleteThink he meant today.
ReplyDeleteHe was Brian Griease, there's no way he alone was going to recapture the Elway magic that was ECW's heyday, and regardless of how good he was, he was doomed from the start because of what came before.
ReplyDeleteI will say I dig me some puns, so Justin Credible is one of my favorite wrestler names of all time. Also that twisting Tombstone always tickled my fancy because you never really saw it outside of taker.
pretty sure bein' down with x factor is a hook up 4 lyfe
ReplyDeleteAldo Montoya overachieved.
ReplyDeleteJorts are a pretty underrated wrestling accessory. The real questions is ... should did Kidman somehow increase the effectiveness of his jorts by adding a wife beater shirt?
ReplyDeleteJorts and a wife beater belong together....
ReplyDeleteShould Ambrose switch to Jorts than? He doesn't strike me a jorts guy honestly ... which is why a nutjob like him should where them.
ReplyDeleteThat last couple years, the ECW Title match was hardly ever the main draw on their ppvs anyway. They had Mike Awesome defending against guys like Spike Dudley and Kid Kash....on shows people were supposed to pay to watch. Credible was a contributing factor, but the damage was done. The relevance of the ECW title was pretty much shot when the Awesome-Tanaka series didn't lead to RVD beating the indestructible monster, Awesome, and defending against all comers on future ppvs. You literally had RVD facing Scotty fucking Riggs on a PPV with a throwaway Awesome title defense.
ReplyDeleteI dont think he is jorts kinda guy and Cena might have an issue with it too...
ReplyDeleteScotty Riggs was a jam up guy...
ReplyDeleteA wife beater is the natural complement to jorts.
ReplyDeleteIt's like macaroni, and cheese.
This of course assumes that ECW ever had an "Elway".
ReplyDeleteCredible's tombstone was pretty good, I agree
The problem with Justin Credible is that he was the physical manifestation of ECW's third-rate nature. Whereas a guy like RVD was over enough to be viewed as a legit main eventer, Credible was a guy you could hardly view as an upper midcarder in the Big Two. He was the very definition of an "only a 'main eventer' in ECW" type guy.
ReplyDeleteHe's worn jorts quite a few times in wrestling ring actually
ReplyDeleteElway more in the sense that pretty much everyone knew ECW wasn't going to be what it was once everyone left, and Justin Credible was pretty much screwed not through any fault of anyones.
ReplyDeleteGonna check the Credible Timeline out tomorrow
ReplyDeleteI thought he was tight with the Kliq?
ReplyDeleteCena would never let Ambrose step on his gimmick. No jorts or small towels for Ambrose.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mind Credible's title reign but his catchphrase was HORRIBLE
ReplyDeleteHe did their laundry...
ReplyDeleteI think Brian Griese is being insulted here. Justin Credible is more like Brooks Bollinger taking over....
ReplyDeleteI think the whole "Heyman couldn't balance the books" is overblown. Not that he did a good job, but they were lacking in star power so much after Taz and the Dudleyz left in 1999 that the company was doomed regardless of Heyman's accounting skills.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, hadn't ECW been on a death watch for a while before it actually closed?
The problem was he was good with X-pac and Hall, not really The Kliq as a whole. not bei.being buds with HBK//HHH/Nash to the point where they'd bat for him made a difference.
ReplyDeleteI imagine his drug issues were the biggest reason why he didn't work at WWE in any backstage capacity.
ReplyDeleteWould you say that Credible's career was botched? Or was it a shoot?
ReplyDeleteTrue.
ReplyDeleteHe had major drug problems, that he has since cleared up, but that was one of the main reasons.
ReplyDelete"You literally had RVD facing Scotty fucking Riggs on a PPV with a throwaway Awesome title defense."
ReplyDeleteThat match happened after Awesome had jumped to WCW.
The way it went was Van Dam confronted Awesome, then broke his ankle in a match with Rhino at a house show a week or two after that. When he returned a a few months later, Awesome was already gone.
Please tell me some little, tiny, itty bitty, part of you understands what I was trying to say with that.
ReplyDeleteIf we accept that a Shoot is something that happens during the course of a promo or a match or a interview that is 'real' as in not scripted, it is not that far of a stretch to then say that a botch is a subcategory of a shoot, right?
Or are we just hung up on what the strictest definition of the word is? That's fine, but just because something is one way, doesn't mean it always has to be that way, ya know?
I came away from his interview with Austin thinking that he sounded like a pretty decent guy. I always thought it was weird that Vince has a "Portuguese Man O' War" gimmick ready and waiting for a guy that spoke the language.
ReplyDeleteSo he's the Mickey Mouse version of Bob Cracket to Uncle Scrooge's version of Ebenezer Scrooge?
ReplyDeleteA botch is unintentional. A shoot is intentional. That's the difference.
ReplyDeleteAre you done with writing for Scott's site?
By the time Credible became champ, ECW was a walking corpse. Nobody on top would have "saved" them, so no matter how bland or boring he was as champ, you can't hang the company's death on him. That was TNN fucking them over and years and years of financial malfeasance on the part of Heyman catching up to him.
ReplyDeleteAs for why he isn't better known, drugs and his one or two buddies in the Kliq blowing all their clout on drugs. He was good enough to be a pissboy that ran to get Shawn a case of beer or whatever, but nobody who mattered was gonna vouch for him.
Look at how lame Kidman and Raven both became when they lost their jorts. Kidman in tights had no edge and Raven resorted to kilts and lederhosen which was basically the death of his character in WWF.
ReplyDeleteBetween Jarrett in TNA (and WCW), Credible and Douglas in ECW and Triple H from 1999-2004, wrestling companies sure had a thing for making average-at-best heels into longterm champions, didn't they?
ReplyDeleteBefore everyone jumps down my throat for listing HHH as 'average-at-best,' just realize that I'm right and you're wrong.
How dare you badmouth THE GAMUH
ReplyDeleteI am now ANGRY-uh
ReplyDeleteYes, not being born yesterday I GET the idea that a botch is unintentional and a shoot is intentional, what I'm saying is that in reality it makes more sense if you consider a botch a sub-category of shoot.
ReplyDeleteSort of like how you could consider an actor flubbing a line an unintentional ad-lib.
And I dunno.
I remember reading when WWE brought back ECW in 2006, Justin had a match with Angle that impressed officials enough to offer him a job, but Credible didn't sign because it would have interfered with his Target thing. Had Justin sign, I imagine he would have lasted a long time in the company as a Stevie Richards type of guy making others look good, which would have led to being offered a job as a agent when he retired.
ReplyDeleteHit the nail on the head, really.
ReplyDeleteEven Taz(z), all 5'9 of him, could be made to look like a legit killer thanks to Heyman's tremendous ability to cover up shortcomings and limitations (of course, when he actually reached the big leagues, we all saw quite how dependent he was on Heyman's production/direction skills - and being surrounded by even lesser jobbers). There was just no way JC could even give the vague impression of being anything other than a non-entity mid-carder.
Justin doesn't need a job with WWE because he's got everything he ever wanted and he'll never give that back. He knows you hate that fact, but you ain't gonna look at him like that.
ReplyDeleteWe're mixing up our stories...wasn't Also working at Olive Garden?
ReplyDeleteIndeed.
ReplyDeleteWhat if we took up a collection for you? Got you a nice card, flowers maybe?
ReplyDeleteStill don't understand why Paul E never pulled the trigger on Rob Van Dam. Why wouldn't you build to Taz Vs RVD for the first show on TNN?
ReplyDeleteConsidering Taz gave his notice it makes it even more of a slam dunk decision. Sure RVD was already the TV champ but have him win the World title on episode 1 and really send the message that THIS is our guy to the viewing public. I never got the Mike Awesome love-in, everyone had to damn near kill themselves to make him look good, he's like an ECW version of Kane.
You're not right at all though. His ring work/psychology from 99-2001 pre-injury was great actually.
ReplyDeleteYou lump yourself into the masses that hate the guy because of how tiresome he became around 2002-2003 and his backstage politics, that you forget he was one of the best wrestlers on the planet for over a 2 year stretch just before that
But no one considers that since a botch and a shoot are two completely different things
ReplyDeleteHeyman was always big on the chase. Look at Dreamer/Raven. The point wasn't for Dreamer to beat Raven, they never even planned for that until Raven gave his notice; the point was in Dreamer chasing Raven. Heyman came up through Southern territories like JCP and CWA. It was always about the build, not the pay-off. Heyman, with a few rare exceptions (911 finally chokeslamming Bill Alfonso), generally sucked at pay-offs.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Heyman WAS building to RVD beating the upstoppable monster but Rob got injured and was out for an extended period forcing Heyman to change his plans.
ReplyDeleteVince had been supporting the company financially well before that, probably somewhere around 1997. Mid '95 through '96 was like the only time they were ever profitable or even approached that point.
ReplyDeleteYeah. There was nothing particularly wrong with it either. As long as you viewed ECW in its own little bubble, guys like Taz, Jerry Lynn, etc could look like legit stars. The problem was that their peak was during the peak of the Big Two and they tried to compare themselves to WWF/WCW at the wrong time. They tried to make a guy called "Justin Credible" their top star at a time when you had Austin, Rock, HHH, Foley, Goldberg, Nash, Hogan, Flair, Sting, et al on top of the big companies
ReplyDeleteI get that but if you're going to pull the trigger on your number one guy surely that time would be when your promotion goes national right?
ReplyDeleteEspecially when your other number one guy (Taz) is half way out the door.
And that old school style philosophy killed Jim Crockett Promotions so i can't fathom why you'd try it again, eventually the good guy has to win sometime!
My bad, thought the Riggs/RVD thing was the same show. I guess my point is that Awesome was fine as a transitional guy to build up for RVD's big conquest, but they waited for fucking ever and never cashed in. Taz leaving should have been enough catalyst to promote the fuck out of a "dream match" between the two with RVD finally reaching the top
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, WCW had the same problem that last few years. While WWF had true superstars on top with Rock and Austin, WCW was putting its belt on DDP and Jarrett--guys who you would only ever view as upper-midcarders on the WWF Scale.
ReplyDeleteExactly. The Chase, in and of itself, wasn't a "bad idea". It was the fact that ECW didn't have the same luxury as the Big Two in waiting forever. They had finally secured legit TV and their former top guy was leaving for WWF. Rob was so obviously The Guy. He should have won the belt and sent Taz packing to become the new face of ECW. Then promote the hell out of your six annual PPVs with RVD as working man's champion defending against Awesome, Raven, Sabu, Lynn, Storm/Credible, whoever.
ReplyDeleteI agree. With new TV and national exposure in place, they didn't have time to dick around with a "chase". No one knew who Mike Awesome was (on the national scale), so it was going to take time to build him up as a big deal before RVD beat him. They already HAD the unbeatable monster in Taz, so promoting RVD challenging for the title as a "dream match" would have sufficed.
ReplyDeleteI always kinda liked Justin Credible, although I can recognize now that he wasn't anything special.
ReplyDeleteMore like Mike Acceptable, AMIRITE?
ReplyDeleteI actually really dug Mike Awesome, but his ridiculous name lends itself to parody almost as well as Justin Credible.
Solid big man to be sure but number one guy in the company? Laughable. Sure he could damn near kill Masato or Ballz with chair shots and almost paralyze Spike or Mikey with powerbombs through tables and the like but take that away and what do you have left? Good for him for getting a big money WCW deal though,it may have pissed off the mutants but it was the smart move.
ReplyDelete