Those last two lightning rounds were a little too easy. Try this one.
Last great match for...
1) Kevin Nash
Shawn Michaels, Good Friends Better Enemies.
2) Scott Hall
Can’t think of anything post-Summerslam 95 off hand.
3) Yokozuna
His title defense against Randy Savage on RAW in 94.
4) Earthquake
I’ll have to get back to you on that one.
5) Jerry Lawler
Bret at Summerslam 93.
6) Al Snow
As others have noted, I forgot about the Benoit match in ECW.
And, just out of mercy, a couple non-shitty workers (but hopefully still more challenging than "legend with an iconic Mania retirement match")
7) Curt Hennig
He had nothing going on in WCW, although his Flair series was pretty good, so maybe the World War III 98 one?
8) Rick Rude
NWA tournament final against Masa Chono.
9) Sean Waltman
I’ll go with one of the random light heavyweight title matches during the Invasion. Say, Jeff Hardy?
10) Roddy Piper
Bret Hart at WM8.
For Ravishing Rick, I'd have to say the ironman match against Steamboat.
ReplyDeleteI'm the emailer, and I'm sad to see that Nash didn't have a single good match in WCW or TNA, apparently. I always had a soft spot for Big Kev, but man did he not earn it outside of those1-3 years in the 90s where he gave a shit.
ReplyDeleteI thought both (or at least the first two, dunno if there was more) Nash/Goldberg matches were pretty good, actually. Great? Not even close.
ReplyDeleteFor hennig, I would go with royal rumble 2002 where he shockingly made the final 4 with angle, hhh, and austin
ReplyDeleteThat was awesome.
ReplyDeleteNash and Hall I'm going to go with the Raw main event in 2002 that had Hall / Nash / Hogan vs. Rock / Austin. A damn fun match and extremely historically significant.
ReplyDeleteLawler and Hart was by far the best part of Summerslam 93.
ReplyDeleteFunny thing about Nash and Hall is they totally stole each other's gimmicks, did them way better, and got over.
ReplyDeleteHall: Was the Diamond Studd, an alleged badass/ladies man/thug combo that never made a ton of sense. Became Razor Ramon, a charismatic gangster who had a lot of fun with his confidence, but was still an evil dick.
Nash: Started (kinda, but you know what I mean) as an allegedly charismatic gangsters who had a lot of fun with his confidence, but was still an evil dick. Became Diesel, a badass/sex-symbol/thug.
For Nash, I would go with the one where he tears his quad; that one was a great match for fans of wrestling everywhere
ReplyDeleteGreat Lawler matches: Empty Arena, Harley Race, any of the Bockwinkel series. Yes he was being carried like groceries, but he was there for them.
ReplyDeleteRude's last match was his last great match.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, The NWA Tournament final was 1992, Rick Rude was still active for over a year and half after this, plenty of good matches in that timeframe.
ReplyDeleteFor fuck's sake, X-Pac had a ****1/2 match against Raven at TNA Hard Justice '05. I would even give it *****, given how badly they bust their ass in that one.
ReplyDeletei was there live for that
ReplyDeleteawesome stuff
I wouldn't call Scott Hall a shitty worker. Lazy more often than not. But he was good.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't Nash fit that description as well? He's had as many good matches as Hall has had.
ReplyDeleteNo love for Hennig/Lawler for the AWA title?
ReplyDeleteHow the fuck is Rude even included in a list of shitty workers?
ReplyDeleteHe had good matches after that, right?
ReplyDeleteHe had a decent match with Giant and Sting too. And I think Joe carried him to a decent match too in TNA.
ReplyDeleteHe isn't, the OP just didn't re-number the list halfway down.
ReplyDeleteHe also had a great match with Lynn too that same year.
ReplyDeleteFinal 3 no less, after Kurt eliminated Stone Cold.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between Hall and Nash was that they both got lazy in WCW yes, but Hall was more disappointing because he's a good worker that can carry his share of the match whereas Nash needs to be carried to a good match.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Snow have some good hardcore matches in 99? And Yoko had some decent matches in 95 when he teamed with Owen.
ReplyDeleteSnow vs Holly in the Mississippi River match was a blast
ReplyDeleteWhat? Name one good Hall match that doesn't involve the same people Nash has good matches with.
ReplyDeleteThreadjack:
ReplyDeleteJust watched the first episode of the Barker-hosted The Price Is Right (1972!), and already a rather hard to beat record was set. The guy who won the showcase was only four dollars off.
(I know it's been beat multiple times... but that's a pretty good start.)
I'm a big Nash fan since I started liking him as a kid before I knew of any of the backstage stuff. When he's motivated he can be pretty good, but yeah, he lacks motivation when his pay is guaranteed.
ReplyDeleteI mean honestly though, if your boss walked up to you and say you can get paid regardless if you work the whole day or leave at lunch, I'm sure most of us would be calling it a day at noon. Hard to blame the guy for that.
Spurs got it, fuck yeah.
ReplyDeleteHeat can't handle the Heat.
Maybe as a heel, but Diesel as WWF champion was pretty tepid stuff. The NEW WWF Generation running on DIESEL POWER was hard to stomach.
ReplyDeleteYeah writing tomorrow's headline isn't going to be very difficult tomorrow I imagine. There are going to be lots of shots of LeBron standing with his head down while the teams played on at the other end of the court.
ReplyDeletePeople are already crying about cheating, as if the Spurs were somehow magically playing in room temperature in the same building.
ReplyDeleteTotal bullshit. San Antonio needs to fix their damn air conditioners. Congrats on the slightly tainted win, I guess.
ReplyDeleteLawler vs Miz in the ladder match a few years ago on Raw was great, probably the best match of all time involving someone over 60.
ReplyDeleteTainted? Spurs wore room-temperature domes now or something?
ReplyDeleteSomebody should have told LeCramp to man up, it's the finals.
That Nitro match against Sting in the Spring of 98 was really good, and Souled Out against Giant was good. I'm one of the few who likes the Havoc match against Scott Hall. Nash goes all Cactus Jack on Hall, not fighting back at all. Until he finally has had enough of Halls drunk antics, kicks his best friends ass and walks away because he doesn't need to pin Hall to show him who's the better man. He had a good one with DDP in 99.
ReplyDeleteSpoken like somebody who's never had a cramp before or has played in athletic competion. How the hell do you expect LeBron to "man up" when he can't even walk? A severe cramp shuts your leg down/
ReplyDeleteI don't know. A 40-year-old is out there getting a double-double and the best, most athletic player in the game couldn't even finish it.
ReplyDeleteBesides, you struck first with the "tainted win" bullshit, as if the Spurs weren't playing in the EXACT SAME CONDITIONS.
Sean Waltman
ReplyDeleteNOBODY ON THE SPURS HAD A SEVERE LEG CRAMP. Are you trying to insinuate that LeBron just pretended to have a bad leg? LeBron's had a history of cramp issues, and he physically couldn't play. That can seriously swing a game to lose a player because of outside conditions.
ReplyDeleteThe Spurs had the same conditions, but the Heat quite obviously got affected the most since LeBron, y'know, COULDN'T walk. Bring the "toughness" narratives out here, because they're completely illogical.
How are you getting that I'm insinuating anything of the sort? I'm being critical of LeBron because everyone out their played in those conditions, including people in their late 30s, and only one guy got affected by it.
ReplyDeleteAnd how is that LeBron's "fault" that his body didn't react to it well? He had cramps and was dehydrated. Other players not experiencing doesn't invalidate that fact that we all saw with our own two eyes. That's like 15 billion fallacies. LeBron didn't just decide that the dehydration was going to shut his leg down.
ReplyDeleteIt's as much LeBron's fault as the win is tainted.
ReplyDeleteThat's my point.
It's not his fault. It's an injury. He literally couldn't play. Would you have rather him go out there and potentially fuck up his hamstring and miss the entire series?
ReplyDeleteIt's not LeBron's fault.
ReplyDeleteThe win isn't tainted.
'kay?
I think he was more really basing it on "Great", so 4 stars are higher. He had quite a few good, very good matches, but maybe not great. Im a big fan of his Cell match vs. HHH but I dont think id give it 4 stars
ReplyDeleteYeah, that stunk, but his tweener run that led to it was great, as was his heel run after.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to be fair to big Kev, as champ he had great matches with Bret/Shawn… and everyone else he worked with was hot liquid ass. The list of people in the company at the time who could have gotten something worthwhile out of Mabel is, like, three or four names long at the most.
We was also in an AWESOME 6 man tag the week before Road Wild 999. It was Hogan/Sting/Goldberg vs. Nash/Sid/Rick Steiner.
ReplyDeleteSounds like the recipe for disaster, but the crowd was molten hot, everyone worked their asses off and it had a super hot last couple minutes
That's bullshit. Both teams played in the exact same conditions
ReplyDeleteWas there for that one..me and my very pregnant wife took in the festivities of the go-home show for WM18 at The Joe. On camera all night, too. It allowed me to get my "Scott Keith (hearts) Lita" sign on the tele.
ReplyDeleteBut that doesn't change the specific effect it had on LeBron.
ReplyDeleteMichael Jordan: Plays through the flu to clinch an NBA Championship.
ReplyDeleteLeBron James: Can't play without air conditioning.
I haven't seen it, but I would not be surprised at all if his match with El Generico was pretty great.
ReplyDeleteSince when are Hennig, Rude, and Waltman shitty workers?
ReplyDeleteAnyway...
Hall and Nash: the BATB 96 main. Might not be a ***** classic, but I bet you've seen than more than most ***** matches, right? So there.
Yoko and Earthquake: Can't think of one for either. My favorite Yoko match is the WM12 one where Owen got his first title.
Lawler: Before my time.
Snow: Yeah, probably the Benoit match.
Hennig: I remember him having a really good match with someone shorty after he joined the nWo, but I can't remember who it was with.
Rude: Again, before my time, but the match Scott mentioned is really good.
Waltman: The Souled Out 97 ladder match with Eddie.
Piper: See Yoko and Earthquake.
I'll take false equivalencies for $500, Alex.
ReplyDeleteand Mabel is such a limited worker that I believe even 1995 Bret Hart could have done a *** at the most with him.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe Lebron needs to MAN UP!
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, Larry Bird is probably sitting back and enjoying a hearty laugh. The Boston Garden was hell on earth to play in during the 80s.
ReplyDeleteYou're saying this as if LeBron simply got tired and sat out. We have eyes and are able to think critically. We saw LeBron unable to walk. What's he supposed to do? Take 10 minutes to get down the floor and then shotput the ball towards the rim because the muscles in his legs aren't allowing him to do anything other than limp? Or "fight through it" until he collapses and discovers he has a serious injury that will force him to miss the series.
ReplyDeleteThese toughness narratives are complete bullshit and are exposing the people who have no idea the rigors athletes go through (or at least pretend not to). The fact that other figures in sports, hell even regular guys who have experienced cramps are coming out and defending him should tell you the truth of what happened to him today.
I wasn't questioning his toughness. I was just saying that the Celtics and Lakers played in god awful conditions in the 80s at the Garden, worse than those in San Antonio. It's more bizarre than anything else.
ReplyDeleteBut it's nice to know that there is at least one detriment to being built like an NFL tight end.
But we probably don't want to engage in debate. You're a Heat fan and I'm someone who thinks they're great but dirty.
Hall was way better than Nash but you can't really answer your question because they always worked with the same people.
ReplyDeleteCalling Scott Hall a shitty worker is kinda offensive.
ReplyDeleteSean Waltham-- vs el generico in chikara a few years back
ReplyDeleteWell put, sir.
ReplyDeleteDiesel vs Bret Hart from Survivor Series 95 >>> Good Friends Better Enemies. It tells such a great story and concludes with an awesome angle. GFBE hasn't aged as well.
ReplyDeleteHennig should have won that Rumble. That would have been an epic storyline and perfect for the belt with Rock/Hogan planned.
ReplyDeleteRaven in 05 is to this day the best champion TNA had and Jarrett messed it up.
ReplyDelete"And, just out of mercy, a couple non-shitty workers (but hopefully still more challenging than "legend with an iconic Mania retirement match") "
ReplyDeleteI agree with the points you made about LeBron below, but that win was in no way tainted.
ReplyDeleteAs Scott noted, Yoko's best match is definitely the Savage match from Raw. Savage was awesome, there. Earthquake? I have no idea.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of bad workers having good matches, wasn't the story with El Gigante wrestling Ric Flair that someone in the company had a sense of humor and wanted to see if Flair could drag a good match out of him? I swear, I've heard that before, but I don't know where.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I've actually always liked the Bret match better. Just an awesome match, from start to finish.
ReplyDelete"I wouldn't call Scott Hall a shitty worker. Drunk more often than not. But he was good."
ReplyDeleteFTFY
Just watched this, it's at most a *** mostly garbage match. But given he wasn't even supposed to be there especially, it's a good match for Waltman. And Raven for that matter. I should watch his TNA run.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Jordan's flu wasn't hitting anyone else. EVERYONE ELSE ON BOTH TEAMS had to play in that situation. Now LeBron knows... DRINK MORE DAMN FLUIDS NEXT TIME.
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell is Curt Henning doing on a shitty workers list?
ReplyDeleteMany people on here need to LEARN TO READ. (Sometimes, I'm even in that list.)
ReplyDelete"And, just out of mercy, a couple non-shitty workers (but hopefully still more challenging than "legend with an iconic Mania retirement match")"
he had a match with AJ that I really enjoyed too that was on the first X-Division DVD.
ReplyDeletevs Vader and a couple vs Jarrett
ReplyDeleteit made a real splash
ReplyDeletelotta people seem to think that Jordans flu was the result of drinking too many "fluids" ifyaknowhatimean
ReplyDeletesee I loved that match too and most people just use it as a punchline since Lawler and Miz are so disliked now.
ReplyDeleteI love the table spot. The crowd is legitimately shocked. Ahhh before the cliche.
ReplyDeleteNo he wasn't. Not when Nash was motivated.
ReplyDeleteNash wouldn't even agree with you.
ReplyDeleteAs usual, "shitty worker" just means "super heavyweight."
ReplyDeleteI would ask how Yokozuna or Razor Ramon could possibly be considered bad workers but then this list has Jerry Lawler on it which is so absurd as to defy description, because on this planet Jerry Lawler is aptly named as the King and clearly one of the top 5 workers in history.
ReplyDeleteHis style worked for his main era and territory... but anyone who has only seen him in the WWF could be forgiven for considering him "not good".
ReplyDeleteIs Kevin Nash a "super heavyweight," or is he just "really tall and shitty?"
ReplyDeleteThat Hall was "way better"? Fuck no. Hall's only good shit is with the same people Nash's good shit is with.
ReplyDeleteYou can't be this dumb.
ReplyDeleteLol. Why are these two getting a pass? Their lists of good matches are no longer than Nash's.
ReplyDeleteThe camera work during the Michaels-Diesel match was pretty crappy too. They totally missed the finish.
ReplyDeleteThe production on the Hart/Diesel match was pretty cool considering how chaotic it was. I liked that they built a storyline rivalry where both were faces yet resorting to heel tactics to best each other. A lot of stuff that became lame and hackneyed in wrestling after originated in that match. It still feels genuine and original as of when I watched it last night.
ReplyDeleteNash had a decent match with Hogan in 1999. Last great match - Taker and Shawn.
ReplyDeleteScott Hall might have had a decent match with Vader ... And even with Waltman in 1996 -- but truly his last good match was probably Shawn at SS 95.
Yoko had a decent match with Savage - but that about it.
The King wasn't a bad worker - not that bad given the cooking style of Memphis
ReplyDeleteI saw Snow have a nice house show match vs Perry Saturn that was all just technical wrestling.
ReplyDeleteBS. I've seen multiple Lawler/Bockwinkel matches and have yet to see one where Nick was outworking him.
ReplyDeleteLawler has probably had loads of great indy matches as recently as just befors his heart attack. Maybe his last great match that felt "big" was the coward's-way-out match against Dream Machine Troy Graham in '94.
IC title final against Martel.
ReplyDeleteAvalanche did some good work early on in WCW, mainly against Sting. I wouldn't call either guy "shitty" at their peak, unless you only evaluate workers by how many moonsaults or suplexes they can do.
ReplyDeleteLawler is probably a top 15 worker ever.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who doesn't say 123 Kid vs. El Generico as Sean Waltman's last great match clearly hasn't seen it, which I suppose is forgiveable enough. What isn't forgiveable is trying to pretend that the Syxx-Guerrero ladder match was "great".
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you don't think Lawler was a great worker, you've probably not watched enough of his 80s stuff. A great starting place is the Wrestling Gold DVD where Jim Cornette dissects a really lousy (in terms of TEH MOVEZ~!) match he has and instead paints a fascinating portrait of a performer who could manipulate the crowd like few others. Never has doing so little meant so much.
I'm not arguing they are elite, but they certainly are not "shitty."
ReplyDeleteI don't think Razor had a single bad match for all of 1994-95. I would say watch his Coliseum Video and then compare it to the Bret and Taker videos from the same era: Razor's video is filled with better and more diversely paced matches than the two elite workers. Indeed I think Razor's entire WWF run from 92-96 is generally filled with good matches that would still hold up as entertaining today and highlighted with a few time all-time classics.
As for Yoko, yes I'll he concede he doesn't have much in the way of true classic matches but he doesn't have that many stinkers either (which is where I would put him above Nash). Furthermore compare Yokozuna to his superheavyweight peers of his era: Bundy, Mabel, Gang, Kamala, Tugboat, etc. I would say he's clearly better than all of them. He is more agile despite being heavier. He sells better. And his offense is more diverse: sure he does the splashes common of the style of a guy his size but he also does martial arts moves and suplexes regularly, which is more than his peers were doing.
Your statement was that Hall is "way better" than Nash.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=429&page=10&sortby=colMeltzer&sorttype=DESC
http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2=00002444&nr=807&page=10&sortby=colMeltzer&sorttype=DESC
Same people, same ratings. Goes to WCW and they both are lazy, unmotivated shits. Not seeing the problem here.
It's a mythical *** match that no-one has ever seen.
ReplyDeleteLast Battle of Atlanta II
Favorite part of the match is where Diesel tried to boot Hart from the corner... but his boot was tied up, so he just lifted the other boot.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm the emailer and freely admit I've only really seen his WWE stuff.
ReplyDeleteThey aren't. Read the post again, sparky.
ReplyDeleteLate to the party here (and a Suns fan, so I dislike both teams and am therefore mostly unbiased), but the Heat are way more vulnerable to those conditions than SA. To wit:
ReplyDelete*SA's best three players- Tim, Manu, Tony- all mentioned after the game that they weren't that bothered by the heat, having had experience playing in similar conditions internationally. Presumably this would also be true for Splitter, Diaw, and Bellinelli, but they matter less anyways.
*Spurs are deeper; they can divide up rest and minutes among more guys.
*Lebron, due to his hyper-dense muscle, is actually *more* susceptible to cramping than anyone else in this series; it's harder to hydrate someone built like him, as his body *already* requires way above average hydration to support his crazy physique (see his cramping in the 2012 Finals).
* Spurs, on the whole, are younger. Yes, Tim and Manu are old as death, but they're also lean, and neither has a game predicated much on athleticism. OTH, guys like Ray Allen, Wade, Rashard Lewis, Battier, Haslem… they're relics who have a hard enough time staying fresh under normal conditions. Bosh/Cole/Chalmers are really the only young-ish Heat players, while SA has Kawhi, Green, Mills, Joseph, Bellinelli, and sorta Tony.
And last but not least…
*Greg Popovich is probably a super villain who rigged the AC, so his team knew to hydrate first :P
…you mean the guy with the physique any biologist or personal trainer could have told you in advance would be effected by it because he has the densest muscle mass? Hardly fair to expect Lebron to drop muscle just in case some freak accident happens and he has to play one game in 95 degree weather.
ReplyDeleteI also loved how they played it up before the match, with the announcers giving their predictions. Really nice touch.
ReplyDeleteI thought Yoko was far from shitty, particularly for a guy his size. He was quite good at what he did.
ReplyDelete