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Lightning Round: X v. Y

Good afternoon Mr. Keith, here is some  matchups I'm curious to have ever happened:

Steamboat vs. Great Muta (WCW 89 most likely?)

Seems likely but I can’t cite a specific match. 

Ric Flair and/or Sting vs. Jushin Lyger (wcw early 90's)

Never that I know about.

Bret Hart vs. Hulk Hogan in WWF

Definitely not. 

Chris Benoit vs. Rey Mysterio in WCW, preferably with a Mask on

Had to have happened either in WCW or Japan. 

Dean Malenko vs. Kurt Angle (WWF Early 2000's)

Can’t see it happening. 

Vader vs. Randy Savage singles match in WCW

You’d think it would have, but I don’t recall it. It would have made sense for Vader to run through Hogan’s wacky little buddy, though. 

Randy Savage vs. Mr. Perfect singles WWF

I don’t think they ever crossed over at a point where their alignments would allow it.  Would have been a hell of a match, though. 

And I know i've asked before, and your answer was no on them facing off, so can you also find it difficult to comprehend that the WWE never headlined a PPV with Michaels vs. the Rock sometime between 2002-2004!?!  Thank you and have a good day

Rock apparently had heat with Michaels dating back to Shawn’s drug-addled days in the 90s when he would treat Rock like shit, so it was always shot down. 

Comments

  1. Benoit vs Mysteio has definitely happened in WWE during the days of the Smackdown 6

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  2. A YouTube search of random goodness brought me to a Randy Savage vs. Jushin Liger match from 1996. That's one of those "wow, they actually worked together" moments. The closest Bret and Hulk had in WWF was a tag match that was featured on a obscure Coliseum Video (Hulk and Billy Jack vs. the Foundation and I think Danny Davis?)

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  3. Sting vs Liger would have been amazing

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  4. Steamboat vs. Muta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8s4qepyJL0

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  5. MaffewOfBotchamaniaJune 26, 2014 at 12:02 PM

    Benoit and Rey had a few tag matches in 1999 as part of the tag division that was almost a predecessor to the SmackDown Six (Slamboree 1999 and a few Nitros and Thunders).

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  6. AverageJoeEverymanJune 26, 2014 at 12:04 PM

    that's true. Definitely in the horns era Rey and not the mask era.

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  7. "Bret Hart vs. Hulk Hogan in WWF"

    Isn't 25% of Bret's book about how Hogan wouldn't put him over in WWF?

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  8. Raven & Saturn become one badass face tag-team at that time. Short-lived unfortunately. But Benoit/Saturn was also a bad ass face tag-team.

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  9. To be fair, it wouldn't have been safe for Hogan to wrestle Hart, what with all the tears in his eyes and all.

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  10. Steamboat vs Muta happened in Japan in 1990, I think it's on YouTube actually.

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  11. Yep, below in the comments someone posted a link.

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  12. Maybe it's just me, but I always kind of had the felling that that was sort of stupid.

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  13. Here's some Steamboat vs Muta documentation: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=258&page=4&search=steamboat

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  14. I think that match was posted as a Match of the Day a few months back. Is it the one where Savage was working with a bad wheel?

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  15. It's kind of funny and definitely ironic that someone shot down a program with HBK.

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  16. As much as I loved Hart, can you blame Hogan?

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  17. Only two Sting vs Liger matches documented on cagematch.net:
    12/27/92: Sting defeats Liger (WCW House Show)
    12/28/92: Sting & Steve Williams defeat Erik Watts and Jushin Liger (Starrcade 92)

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  18. Benoit-Rey... Well, there were a ton of Benoit/Malenko vs Rey/Kidman matches, but only one singles match, at a house show on 5/23/99... same day as Owen's death. Rey successfully defended the cruiserweight title.

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  19. Sure can. He should've put over Bret in 93

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  20. Hennig-Savage... umm, would you accept Curt Hennig def. Frank Savage, from a WWF event in 1981? http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=29143

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  21. Yep, it REALLY hurt Bret that he wasn't allowed to go over one of the top 80's guys (Hogan/Savage/Warrior). He just seemed like a "big fish in a small pond" during his title reigns.

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  22. That Steamboat-Muta match was kinda disappointing. Loved dickhead heel Muta tho.

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  23. Savage was probably willing also...my time machine alt universe booking would be Bret vs Savage at WM9. With Savage having won the rumble.

    Then that SWEET outfit Savage was wearing at WM9, and the awesome entrance where he's carried out with harem feeding him grapes wouldn't have been wasted on an entrance for a commentator.

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  24. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TIIFn4DjPkM&feature=kp

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  25. Savage might have done it, but Vince essentially wasted Savage from the moment he lost the title back to Flair until he left at the end of 94.

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  26. I'll just be over here, watching someone beat a horse to death.

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  27. I'm not sure if I saw it posted here, but for a while I was just a lurker. I remember just searching "Jushin Liger" and it popped up and going "woah!". It's not a great match (**1/2-*** neighborhood), but a great example of "you'll never see this again."

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  28. Savage probably would have done the job. But Hogan, in 1993, probably (and maybe had a point) believed that he should still only job to larger-than-life wrestlers.

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  29. He sure didn't look larger than life anymore

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  30. "And I know i've asked before, and your answer was no on them facing off, so can you also find it difficult to comprehend that the WWE never headlined a PPV with Michaels vs. the Rock sometime between 2002-2004!?! Thank you and have a good day

    Rock apparently had heat with Michaels dating back to Shawn’s drug-addled days in the 90s when he would treat Rock like shit, so it was always shot down."



    The Rock only wrestled on 9 pay per views in those three years and to be more specific he only wrestled on four pay per views after Shawn's return in those three years so there really was no chance for them to work together. I know Scott said they had heat but honestly I think it was more just the fact that when exactly where they going to do a program together. I guess you could have made them a headliner at Wrestlemania XX since they were concerned Benoit couldn't draw on his own against Hunter. But outside of that I guess you could have also done Rock vs. HBK at Wrestlemania 19 instead of Rock vs. Austin 3 which I personally didn't care for. But yeah there wasn't exactly a lot of chances of them working together. Personally the match would have been NUCLEAR if it could have happened in like 2000.

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  31. I don't think Hogan was wrong because the immediate success he had in WCW for the first year and a half showed there was still some money in that formula. As Scott pointed out before though, Hogan eventually killed it because he NEVER was willing to suffer a beatdown or cheap loss, as he did during his WWF run.

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  32. AverageJoeEverymanJune 26, 2014 at 12:42 PM

    It was more than sort of stupid.

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  33. Oh, Frank. The Poffo brother that was neither a Savage nor a Genius.

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  34. AverageJoeEverymanJune 26, 2014 at 12:45 PM

    with tears in YOUR eyes.

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  35. I think Bret did go over Savage during a tour of Japan in 93 or 94. Submitted to the Sharpshooter, too.

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  36. AverageJoeEverymanJune 26, 2014 at 12:46 PM

    Dungeon Curse!

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  37. MaffewOfBotchamaniaJune 26, 2014 at 12:50 PM

    Saturn and Raven was great...and then lead to Raven and Kanyon and Benoit and Saturn...which were also great!

    I'm curious as to how those series started. I like to think they all got together and went ''let's just wrestle each other as often as possible so we're not stuck wrestling Van Hammer or Rick Steiner'' and just pushed other wrestlers out of matches so they could hang out.

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  38. I've heard hbk say more than once that rock didn't want to work with him.

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  39. 25% tears, 40% Flair being repetitive, 35% Hogan not jobbing to him, and %18 banging ring rats on the road.

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  40. One might even venture far enough to describe it as quite stupid.

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  41. Chavo's stick horse? Didn't Norman Smiley already do the deed?

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  42. The match was definitely referenced in Bret's book... Blackjack Lanza had tears in his eyes for doubting Savage's ability to work the Main Event still.

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  43. and 4.5% of the Hogan portion is Bret calling Beefcake a kiss-ass.

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  44. What, you didn't like his -*** matches with Giant Gonzales that toured the house shows in the Summer of 1993?

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  45. Even the Graphic Novel of Andre's life has Beefcake as an ass-kissing snitch. Glorious.

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  46. CruelConnectionNumber2June 26, 2014 at 1:01 PM

    He said in WCW, though.

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  47. YankeesHoganTripleHFanJune 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM

    Why the FUCK did you cover him Randy? You can't get pins in the Rumble!! It's simple...you goldbrick against the ropes, wait for Yoko to charge then pull the ropes down, the fat man topples over and we get Hart vs Savage at WrestleMania 9.

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  48. Did meltzer rate it 7 or 8 stars? Oh wait, Bret PLUS Japan = a gazillion stars!!

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  49. TJ for a random question.


    Anyone here know much about laptops? Because I don't. I bought a used one and every time I go to use it it shuts down. I'm pretty sure the only time it shuts down is when it's not plugged in but I thought it did it when it was once. I unplugged it today and watched the battery life drain down to 50% within minutes and then it shut off. Is the battery the problem?

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  50. Slightly off topic but I kind of wish WWE would have ran the Backlund program a year earlier with a departing Hogan instead.

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  51. He was a Savage, but Frankly, not very Macho.

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  52. I heard someone, either Shawn or JR, or Shawn on JR's podcast, discuss it and it was said it was pitched and Rock just wasn't interested in it.


    As someone who holds grudges, I respect Rock for making it big and holding a grudge against someone who was a dick to him before he did.

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  53. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 1:22 PM

    I remember HBK saying he never got the chance to wrestle Eddie Guerrero. That is a shame because it could have been a good feud.

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  54. He was though.

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  55. Hogan probably knew he had WCW in his back pocket and wasn't ready to pass the torch just yet.

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  56. Yeah, he talks about it in his book - Bret was supposed to beat him quickly without much fuss and they decided to go out and have a hard fought match instead.

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  57. There's gotta be at least 30% ragging on Shawn and Hunter for ruining the business.

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  58. No, it was definitely heat. Rock has discussed it multiple times.


    Basically, Shawn did some really disrespectful shit to Rock's mom when he worked her promotion back in the day. I think Rock was maybe 14 or 15 at the time. He said he had never seen a wrestler so disrespectful to his mom and nearly fought Shawn on the spot. He said he never really forgave him for that until recent years, and Shawn never apologized until recent years.

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  59. But yeah, Shawn-Rock is my number one fantasy match that we never got. Would have been insanely good pretty much anytime post-comeback for Shawn.

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  60. Definitely would have been cool with their history.

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  61. And was awesome.

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  62. This gets my lowest rating ever...7 thumbs up.

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  63. Absolutely. I wonder how they would have run the feud. Shawn as DX heel vs. good guy Eddie? Seems kind of off. Good guy Shawn vs. Lie/Cheat/Steal Eddie might be better with Eddie outsmarting Shawn throughout the angle, forcing Shawn to resort to some nastiness, too.

    Or maybe face vs. face? But what's the stakes? Shawn didn't care for championships in his later run. Maybe they start out as a tag team and then break up and want to wrestle to see who's the better man? I like that one.

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  64. Sure sounds like it. Might be the charging connection, though. Try whipping the metal parts on the battery and the computer with a dry cloth or something... I've heard an eraser works, too.

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  65. Team them up as Latino Heartbreak

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  66. Savage was too worried about getting his hat back the next night on Raw from the Repo Depot Man.

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  67. I don't think Hogan would have wanted to wrestle the smaller Bob because he was taking on giants and muscleheads. Plus, Backlund couldn't have a technical match like he did with Bret.

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  68. I think he means wipe. Don't whip the laptop.

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  69. I have to confide in you, that's the greatest joke about Hogan wrestling Hart that I've ever seen anyone make

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  70. I seem to recall a match where Benoit was left without a tag partner and Saturn showed up to team with him, or maybe it was the reverse.

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  71. AverageJoeEverymanJune 26, 2014 at 1:37 PM

    Ive had laptops do the same thing and they work for a while after I buy a new battery (fucking expensive things) or I just leave it plugged in.

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  72. Really?! I so want to check it out now.

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  73. YankeesHoganTripleHFanJune 26, 2014 at 1:38 PM

    Well....he did get it.

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  74. Hogan should have never had the title in the first place.

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  75. If Hulk wanted to, he could work a technical match. He didn't have to, so he rarely did. Did WWF fans really want to see Hulk Hogan trading armbars and leglocks with anyone?

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  76. They have a panel about Hogan concerned about Andre not putting him over. The joke is Andre tells Bret this is front of Beefcake, because he knows Beefer sucks up to Hulk.

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  77. I know but that was Bob's style. Even when he was insane, he was still wrestling technically but with some flare so it looked crazy painful.

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  78. A couple of people have said that a Shawn-Eddie match was pencilled in for WM22 before Eddie died.

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  79. Was it a good book?

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  80. Mr. Backlund definitely was a different beast. As a kid, he scared me, as a grown up, I was blown away by how good he was and out-working the majority of the roster.

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  81. Even as a kid I got tired of guys working only kind of match (although I didn't know how to articulate it at the time), so that would have been a pretty cool change of pace and probably would have made me like Hogan more as a kid and be less destined for smark cynicism (something I battle to this day!)

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  82. I remember that! And Savage was pissed at Lanza for talking shit about him.

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  83. I enjoyed it. It takes all of the Andre stories passed around from various sources (Meltzer), shoot interviews, and illustrates them. It's not a mind blowing masterpiece, but it has a lot of heart and effort, and does a great job of trying to humanize such a larger than life character.

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  84. In the future we won't have these questions (because we'll be grown up and....ha ha ha, right) because in the current product they run every match option into the ground. "Hey, did Cesaro ever wrestle Sheamus?". Um, yeah, 3 times last week alone, and no one was protected, no one advanced in any way, and the PPVs weren't all that special because there's nothing intriguing about something you've had a hundred times already.

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  85. I never had an issue with Hulk's work until his babyface matches became a comedy formula. I would ear-mark that around 1989, when he became more of a part-timer who wanted to make movies. Then his work REALLY sucked as a heel in the New World Order. Laughably bad, back scratching, bullcrap work.

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  86. Whip it good!

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  87. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 1:46 PM

    Christian Shawn against "lying/stealing/cheating" Eddie

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  88. A million up-votes for this. I still don't understand the logic. Hulk's popularity was dipping and he was becoming more of a headache to work with, so you put the title on him and expect him to hold up his word of putting over Bret down the line? I know the numbers were slipping, but it was a slope that would keep going for 3 more years. Nothing was saving it except evolving the product.

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  89. Probably because HHH and Rock were competing for the spot of the next big star.

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  90. I loved Bret's book when I first red it but after a couple of re-reads ... it's pretty self serving. Still a great look at a great career and and an interesting life but that epilogue condemning Shawn and HHH and than him working with them both again, making a DVD with Shawn, working with Vince at mania. It's changed the way I viewed it and Bret to some degree.
    HartKiller_09's mocking of Bret's tear's, confiding, respect and greatness always make my day! Thanks!

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  91. Okay...but you didn't upvote it.

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  92. Calling me out for not following through with promises of putting you over? Let's settle this in the ring at BOD Superstars! :P

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  93. I'll kick your ass!...in Nintendo.

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  94. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 1:54 PM

    I don't know what it was about Bret. As great as a technical wrestler as he was he just didn't have that next level charisma to look like he belonged in the ring with Hogan.

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  95. Yeah. Arn stepped onto the apron, took off his shirt, made it look like he was going to do it and the fans went nuts...and Saturn came in instead. Which was fine and dandy, too.

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  96. Yeah, that's the one. Savage was pretty hurt.

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  97. First ever BOD Twitter Poll Match! Blog otters get to choose between WWF WrestleMania, Pro Wrestling, or WCW Wrestling as the battle ground. :D

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  98. Yeah, but very few dudes did. Even Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair barely seemed like they belonged.

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  99. I would have had Savage jump Bret all the time during the lead-up with everyone questioning if clean-cut Bret would succumb to such...wait for it...MADNESS!!!

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  100. Uncrusimatic_Buck_NastyJune 26, 2014 at 2:03 PM

    i didn't grow up watching wrestling, but i got into it at a time before everything had been run into the ground, so i still know the feeling of fresh mashups, as well as being able to relive matches that are close enough in time to the present that they dont seem like ancient history

    so sad what today's fans have to grow with

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  101. Would've been Face Shawn vs. Heel Eddie, I think, though I'm sure Shawn could've gone heel for just that feud.


    Still, would have been a heck of an angle/match.

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  102. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

    HBK looked good against Hogan. LOL

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  103. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 2:08 PM

    I would have like to see Shawn and Eddie do a best of seven series where Eddie cheats his way through the first 3. HBK gets himself together and wins the next three with the final match being at WrestleMania.

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  104. Did you dislike Flair as well?

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  105. Exactly. Hogan worked the style he needed to work.

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  106. I think the match itself would have been enough of a draw you could simply go with a respect angle, and Shawn and Eddie are good enough to make it work.

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  107. Hogan did face Bret Hart in some mixed tag matches in 1987, while Hogan was teaming with Billy Jack Haynes. There was a legend of Hogan and Hart wrestling in Japan during the WWF years, but I think that was just a legend. The closest thing to a WWF encounter was that Haynes/Hogan vs. Hart Foundation/Danny Davis mix-tag match and I think they simply locked-up and that was it. Hogan did have the honor of pinning Jim Neidhart though.

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  108. 10% on how his first ex-wife was a psycho. 1% on how his second ex-wife was not in the cards because he was Bret Hart.

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  109. Not really at the time. Although, seriously -- seeing Hogan power out of the sharpshooter and big booting and leg dropping Hart back down to the midcard would have been awesome. I wish he had done that with Benoit a few times in 1997.

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  110. But Savage shook his hand. Isn't that an endorsement at least?

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  111. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 2:26 PM

    He also talked about some Puerto Rican stewardess with big tits that he was banging in Newark.

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  112. I am still amazed of his 1993 Japanese tour in both May and November of 1993. I'm wondering if WCW hadn't given him what he wanted, if he would have just become a Gujin legend or something.

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  113. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 2:29 PM

    I remember a wrestling magazine they talked about this match. Bret needed to wrestle someone I Japan and someone suggested he wrestle Savage. It was treated as an afterthought because at the time they didn't like face/face matchups:

    http://youtu.be/QKL_CYbl7bE

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  114. In retrospect, a heel Hogan in the WWF putting over a Luger or somebody that looked the babyface Hogan part would have been better than what we got. It's a shame that Bret was only a good wrestler, and not a mass market persona like Hogan. Yokozuno fit the part too, but he was a natural heel.

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  115. Porn Peddlin' Jef VinsonJune 26, 2014 at 2:31 PM

    See my youtube link above. Bret wen over Macho man.

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  116. No, but a large part of that was because he seemed like the coolest guy in the world to me, plus he had better opponents most of the time, and I liked the crescendos of his matches plus all the begging off stuff (I liked sneakiness a lot). I get the contradiction, but we are talking about when I was 6-8 years old.

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  117. Wasn't Liger and Sting on opposite teams in a Battle Bowl matcj.

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  118. I think the only time Savage faced off with Vader was in the Slamboree '95 main event (Hulk/Savage vs. Flair/Vader).

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  119. Bob carried some slugs, so he could have worked Hulk.

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  120. James M. FabianoJune 26, 2014 at 2:38 PM

    I bet you meant singles only, but I think Hogan teamed with someone like Strike Force against the Hart Foundation and (???? Either HTM or Davis...)

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  121. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta-N_Ygn5v8 -- Hart vs. Savage in 1994

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  122. Good effort...but WAY too hard to watch.

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  123. Another match-up I'd like to see that I don't think was ever televised, but happened a few times at house shows, was Hogan vs Roberts. A heel Roberts seems like such a perfect foil for Hogan. Sadistic, cynical conniver vs, well, Hogan.

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  124. Bret did mention that in 1990, he, Hogan and Earthquake went on a Japan tour together...but I doubt Bret was working Hogan on those shows.

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  125. Couldn't the emailer just googled if these matches happened?

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  126. If it stays on while plugged in, it's the battery.

    If it turns off even while plugged in, could either be a connection or a sign that your 'board is failing.

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  127. DX heel Shawn vs. Lie/Cheat/Steal Eddie. DX Shawn was always the guy getting under everyone else's skin, it would've been cool to see Eddie get under *his*. HBK cheats in an attempt to win, only for Eddie to steal the win by outcheating him.

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  128. Yeah, but would google deliver the results at an undetermined time depending on Scott's mailbag, interest, and memory?

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  129. Most of the time Hogan was in Japan he was facing Japanese guys, even when he was in WWF.


    "AXE BOMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

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  130. If you had been squished 6 ways from Sunday by Yoko for the previous 5 minutes, I doubt that you would be in possession of all your mental marbles also. So you would have probably instinctively gone for the pin after your finisher, the same way you did hundreds of times before.

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  131. Rusty ShacklefordJune 26, 2014 at 3:20 PM

    Yeah if it's the one I've seen it was awkward as hell, but once they got a rhythm going they managed to drag a half decent match out of it kicking and screaming. Great to see for the novelty though.

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  132. A lot of the emails could be googled for answers. Scott's responses and the potential for off the rail conversation are where it's at. :P

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  133. Yep. Starrcade 92.

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  134. Benoit/Mysterio I recall wrestled in singles in WWE and in tag matches in WCW with their malenko/Benoit vs Kidman/mysterio

    Hope that helps

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  135. Making Savage a heel makes that harem feeding grapes entrance even MORE BAD ASS~!!

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  136. My work cell doea the same thing if the battery is less than half. just a shitty batterry i assume.

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  137. Yeah, and allegedly Roberts was getting face pops even versus Hogan. So that ended that idea.

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  138. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 4:28 PM

    Or Metacrawler using Netscape Navigator. Now optimized for Windows 95!

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  139. It's amazing that there used to be match pairings that didn't happen. Off hand I can't think of any big matches between contemporary, established WWE guys that we haven't seen multiple times. Between Raw and Smackdown, they don't really leave dream matches in the wings anymore. Guess that can be a good and bad thing, considering sometimes these matches never happen.

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  140. Lesnar and Taker have a few, I suppose. Only happens with part-timers.

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  141. I actually do this type of work for a living, so here's my advice:


    Take the battery off with the power cord connected. Does it still work? If yes, then the battery is most likely a dud.


    If not.... It could be a couple of things. It could be because it's overheating. Are the vents dusty? If so then this can cause the heat sink to come loose from the CPU due to melting the insulating paste separating the two.


    The hard drive may have failed as well. Go into Device Manager and look for yellow exclamation points. The video card may also be to blame.


    I have no idea how old this laptop is or what operating system it's using, so these are really just basic troubleshooting steps.


    Used laptops can be a great buy. If you can self-repair. There's usually a reason people get rid of them. My honest advise is to take it to a repair guy and let them run a diagnostic.

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  142. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 4:39 PM

    Sting and Muta vs The Road Warriors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W-3C0ynbaE

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  143. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 4:41 PM

    Sting in that weird in between faze between surfer Sting and Crow Sting where he had started to grow his hair out.

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  144. Yeah, but that wasn't going to happen. Hogan wasn't turning heel in WWF. He didn't turn heel in WCW until there was a hot enough angle to avoid him.

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  145. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM

    Wargames without the Wargames: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhULLIPeGjo

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  146. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 4:49 PM

    Thank christ shows don't end like this nowadays. You think people are down on RAW, just imagine if it ended like this.

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  147. It's a double edge sword. Teasing fans with that to entice them to come see a show live helps house show numbers. At the same time, people are going to be turned of by the TV product doing these teases. I can see why it was done, but you can only do it in small doses so you don't fuck the audience over too much (see: WCW, late 90's).

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  148. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 4:54 PM

    "Fans, we're out of time! Call the hotline!"
    Yeah, I know what you mean. But considering the bulk of the money these days is from the tv show, there's no way that stunt would fly now the way the business is set up.

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  149. The had Batista vs Sheamus and threw that away with no build on Smackdown a couple months back. Now that's not exactly Austin/Goldberg but still.

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  150. Steamboat/Muta happened in Japan in 90 or 91.

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  151. Also I think Benoit/Mysterio happened on Smackdown!

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  152. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 5:09 PM

    Spet. 30th, 1990 to be exact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8s4qepyJL0

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  153. I don't blame Hogan for not wanting to put Bret over. Neither No Holds Bared or Suburban Commando made a ton of dough at the box office. If the best offers he was getting was crap like Mr. Nanny (which did even worse that Suburban Commando at the box office), even as delusional as he is he had to be nervous that his movie career wouldn't pan out. He was turning 40 in 1993, so he still had plenty of wrestling years left to make money.

    He already did what Vince asked and put Warrior over, and that was a bust. And Bret wasn't as big or flashy as Warrior was. Hogan likely saw WCW as an option -- he was already filming Thunder in Paradise in mid 1993 anyway and that was a Turner project -- so he didn't want to put Bret over and make himself look bad before arriving in WCW as a conquering champion. A screwjob loss to a big fat monster like Yokozuna made him look better on the way out.

    Yeah, it would've been "Best for Business" to have Bret beat Hogan to make a clean transition. But it really wasn't in Hogan's best interest and Vince surely wasn't going to pay Hogan a lot of cash to lay down for Bret because he didn't have it at the time. Plus, Vince might've been holding out hope that Hogan would come back and didn't want to insult him. After all, the Warrior "passing of the torch" didn't work, and the only thing that seemed to draw was Hogan -- hence why he tried to make Luger into Hogan 2.0

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  154. I never heard of youJune 26, 2014 at 5:22 PM

    Thunderlips jobs for no one!

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  155. And thats why the house show scene is a complete after thought. As boring and predictable as the TV product is, the house show lineup isn't even worth thinking about. Does it ever change, except for the occasional different opponent for Cena?

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  156. I don't know, i haven't even looked at a house show report in ages. Hell there's a house show coming to my hometown next month and i couldn't be less interested.

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  157. That's a damn fine break down of Hogan's reasoning behind his 1993 comeback and not putting Bret over.

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  158. WWE ran a show down in Ft. Myers advertising Randy Orton, the Big Show, and Alberto Del Rio back in February. No matches hyped, just "come see Orton, Del Rio, and the Big Show." I don't even know if all three appeared as advertised.

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  159. Did Bret really need it? The audience at the time bought him totally and completely. Hogan vs. Austin is a bigger legacy curiousity to me. Hogan vs. Bret never happening in WCW is criminal, however. And Bret absolutely should have been put over Hogan in 98.

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  160. Thanks Garth! I know it's a sore point for a lot of Bret fans here, and I agree it would've been better for Bret to end up beating Hogan in 93 and I would've loved to see the match. But I see no reason why Hogan would do it from where he was at in 1993. That big movie career wasn't panning out.

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  161. They now use house shows as a loss leader to drive TV and not TV as a loss leader to drive houses. I honestly like the current methodology okay; going to house shows are fun. I like the "chill and see some wrestling" vibe that TV tapings and PPVs don't have. That much said, the vibe for even a mid tier 8000 seat UFC show totally shatters the WWE's PPV ambience for all but Mania.

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  162. I'm a huge Bret fan and I'm not too rustled about it and never really was. WCW is the sore spot.

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  163. In hindsight, would the loss have done anything for Bret? Hulk's return didn't boost house show numbers, the few he bothered to work, Mania IX had the lowest buyrate for a WM even with the big hype of Hulk's return, and overall interest was down for the entire wrestling scene in the states. Hogan doing the job that doesn't help the business just adds more fuel to his "why should I" mentality.

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  164. This would add fuel to Hulk's fire but his return didn't draw for two reasons


    A) He looked like some skinny white guy basketball player all deflated with no steroids and his look just wasn't what drew money to his name.
    B) He wasn't in the title match. Who gives a shit about whether Hulk wins the tag titles? He's a singles guy who did tags with his little buddies.

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  165. Hogan did good numbers for SummerSlam PPV's without the title. It wasn't out of the realm of believability to draw in fans who stopped watching because of Hogan's "retirement" and for casual fans who hear Hogan is wrestling.

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  166. I think Hogan's "retirement" was never bought by the fanbase and most people just assumed he was taking some time off. Everybody knew he would come back at some point. I think a lot of fans left around 92 because the product changed directions massively because the whole company being mired in scandal. That was the year I became a fan so it's really hard for me to see past rose colored nostalgia glasses but it was a dark, dark year for wrestling.

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  167. A lot was criminal in WCW 1998. I've gone on and on here about how from Starrcade 1997 to Starrcade 1998 WCW botched the runs of what could of been three megafaces: Sting, Bret Hart, and Goldberg (though Goldberg was good up until his piss-poor world title run).

    Those are three guys who could've been huge faces that got pushed down the card so Bischoff could get Jay Leno and Dennis Rodman on PPV.

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  168. Hogan's return was definitely inevitable, but again, history has shown Hulk coming back from hiatus did good business. All the sex related and steroid related scandals in 1991-92 really damaged the company, and who knows what was left of the fanbase when the dust settled.

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  169. If Bischoff had the balls to run his own rooster shed instead of giving everyone and their mother creative control and say in the overall booking of the company... well, we wouldn't be bitching about how poorly ran WCW was.

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  170. And some of those Hogan fans just grew out of it. 7 year old Hogan fans in 1984 were 16 in 1993.

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  171. I think they weren't able to rebuild the family friendly image for a lot of years after that. Although; if the glitz and cocaine glamour and the 80s family rah rah Reagan facade hadn't melted away there never would have been an attitude era.

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  172. I think we're starting to see that now with Cena's fans. I remember when it genuinely was a "mixed" reaction. Now he is just straight up booed out of the building. Cena as champion again? Cena as Brock again? Jesus Christ who fucking cares.

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  173. Yeah, we might still be watching Nitro on Monday nights and bitching about what we saw on Nitro.

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  174. Bret Hart was the biggest name in pro wrestling at the end of 97 with the most controversy and a very fat paycheck...and the first thing they use him as is a referee at the pay per view. Not even a referee...an "enforcer". Fucking great.

    And somehow WWF did the same exact thing with Mike Tyson and got it over huge and drew a bazillion dollars.

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  175. Leno and Rodman wouldn't have been all that bad if it was a midcard attraction and they didn't shove Goldberg into a curtain jerking champion role against guys like a past his prime, indifferent Curt Hennig.

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  176. I care if it means Brock beats the everloving crap out of Cena like he should've two years ago. I'll care even more if he kick's Cena's hat again.

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  177. There probably wouldn't be a Raw to watch.

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  178. The ending of that match was alllll the money from Brock's gigantic contract flushing away. And Cena did not even take his promised break to sell the ass beating. Really infurating ending to that; i can't even watch the match and enjoy it from how much the ending fucks everything up. I don't even think breaking the Undertaker's streak rebuilt Brock.

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  179. Mike Tyson was a mainstream, worldwide-known celebrity. Bret might have been the most popular guy in wrestling, but that's not even in the same planet as the most dominant world heavyweight boxing champion of his era and a well-known nutcase. That's how it worked for WWF.

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  180. A couple of people alluded to it, but the super-awesome Benoit/Angle/Mysterio match happened on Smackdown in 2002, I think.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DujBdc6hcDs

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  181. I wouldn't argue with you there. But it'll give me some measure of satisfaction to watch Brock kill Cena anyway.

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  182. Yeah but Tyson was in a role where he could barely get physical and was getting a lot of money to goofily mispronounce wrestler names ("Cold Stone My Man!") and do crotch chops. I've always thought the "Enforcer" thing was some weaksauce...like...he is standing outside the ring and may get involved lightly in the match, who cares. I think Tyson is the only time it was pulled off.

    1997/1998 Bret was at the peak of his drawing power on PPV and was a major, major name in wrestling. I don't think that it was smart to use him in that capacity. He should have wrestled on Starrcade 97 or at least been in a spot where his loyalties to either the nWo or WCW were in question and played out in an interesting way.

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  183. IF that's what they do. They are all shelled up in ultra conservative booking mode right now.

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  184. Sting and Liger faced off on opposite teams at Starrcade '92, and Bret vs. Hulk happened in the WWF in 1987, by way of a Hogan/Billy Jack Hayes vs. Hart Foundation/Danny Davis handicap match. Benoit and Rey wrestled a lot in WCW in '99 in tag teams, but singles matches are harder to come by.

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  185. Oh, Bret being the "Enforcer" at Starrcade was moronic on so many levels. The fact that's only the SECOND dumbest thing about Starrcade 1997 is mind blowing.

    But Tyson pulled in non-wrestling fans -- and as you said, probably better than any celebrity appearance in PPV history. Bret definitely helped the Starrcade buyrate by bringing over WWF fans, but not to the degree Tyson did.

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  186. This isn't but requested but as I suspected it definitely happened in the WWE:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6j4sr_rey-mysterio-vs-chris-benoit-3-10-0_sport

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  187. Starrcade 97...just...everything that happens after Bret restarts the match should have been what happened for the ENTIRE match. Sting bullrushes Hogan, kicks his fucking ass and beats him FAST. Hogan puts up a lot of talk about how he wasn't ready, his rematch clause, etc...whines and moans and THEN do the money rematch at Superbrawl. They just did everything so ass backwards. The Superbrawl rematch being more competitive would have been fine.

    They just knew how much they were gambling with Tyson, they spent a boatload of money after an awful financial year where they just got their asses kicked up and down and they were able to convert new fans.

    They never really got Bret over as a WCW guy...he was just an exiled WWF guy drawing a check, it showed in how they booked him, it showed in Bret's attitude and the indifference basically led to him having no meaningful angles and only two good matches against Flair at Souled Out and against Benoit. That he didn't have a major, major angle that drew huge against Sting about Scorpion Death Lock vs. Sharpshooter is criminally stupid.

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  188. Yes to all of this. It's so ridiculous that any wrestling fan could book 1998 WCW better than the people running WCW in 1998 ever could.

    Well, except Vince Russo, probably.

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  189. Can you IMAGINE that kind of roster depth existing in any promotion today? When people say the WWF has a monopoly it is such a fucking joke. WCW had *THAT* roster and still had two very large major competitors. That's probably the biggest assembling of talent *and* star power ever under one promotion...and it boasted almost zero shows that were better than good and many shows that were out and out fucking terrible.

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  190. I'm on board with this. If I could take control of any promotion EWR style via time machine, I would undoubtedly start at the moment WCW gets Bret Hart. So much potential wasted.

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  191. I just checked the most recent house show results from this past sunday and they actually ran 2 seperate shows and honestly they didn't sound too bad. It all depends on if they have their working boots on that particular night.

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  192. Dude, I found a random poster of WWE's roster in 2003. At one point, WWE had The Rock, Austin, Goldberg, Triple H, Cena, Benoit, Rey, Edge, Lesnar, Angle, Edge, Taker, Jericho, Orton, Batista, RVD, Booker, and Steiner on their roster.


    And it was one of their worst years creatively.

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  193. That's true. Hogan, Sid, Roberts, Piper, Neidhart, and a lot of other mainstays bolted right after WM8.

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  194. Just wait; they'll get cold feet at the last minute and have Cena pin Brock via AA

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  195. Bret should have entered right into a feud with Hall and Nash. It was RIGHT THERE

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  196. It wasn't a facade. People got more liberal and evil. Post modernism turned it's ugly head thanks to them electing a hippy in the White House. Bombing Russia in five minutes wasn't going to happen with the communists in the White House. [The last sentence is a joke. Clinton's not a communist.[

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  197. I wish they had done Benoit vs. Hogan in 1996. Have Hogan beat him in 15 seconds to the big boot and leg drop.

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  198. I'm sure somebody else has already caught and posted this, but Steamboat and Muta squared off in I believe NJPW? and I want to say 1990? I'm not positive on where or when, but I'm sure it happened.
    It is a really cool match-up on paper, absolutely a fantasy match. The match itself has a decent length, and was very entertaining. Man just thinking about it makes me wanna watch it again. Muta was and is so fucking awesome. He was just so good and amazing to watch.
    Haven't read any spoilers yet, but I'm curious to see who he faced in TNA during these most recent tapings in NYC. I'm very interested in the reaction he received, I'm guessing the smark NY crowd bowed down like they should have.

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