The SmarK Rant for Monday Night RAW – 08.15.94
That last Clash killed my WCW mojo for a bit, so we’ll switch back to crappy 94 WWF instead for a change of pace.
LIVE from Lowell, MA.
Your hosts are Vince McMahon & Randy Savage, and this has gotta be close to the final set of tapings for Macho.
Owen Hart v. 1-2-3 Kid
Kid leaps into the ring with a spinkick and works on the arm, getting a cradle for two. They trade wristlocks and Kid kicks him down again for two and grabs a headlock. Owen does a sweet reversal into a backslide, but Kid goes back to the headlock until Owen suplexes out of it. They do another nice series of reversals and Kid dropkicks him out of the ring and follows with a baseball slide. He follows with Jericho’s springboard dive and gets rid of Anvil as well. We take a break, and return with Owen suplexing Kid from the apron to the floor and following with a pescado. Back in, Owen takes over and whips Kid into the turnbuckles for two, but he comes back with a sunset flip for two. Owen slows it down again with a chinlock and a neckbreaker, but goes up and misses a flying kneedrop. Kid goes to work on the knee enthusiastically and goes to a half-crab, so Neidhart just walks in and clobbers him at 14:00. The Kid was actually getting some protection there. ***1/2
Meanwhile, Abe “Knuckleball” Schwartz is on strike, which is as close to topical as Vince ever got. Sidenote: The original name for the character was “MVP”.
Duke “The Dumpster” Droese v. Nick Barbery
Duke quickly goes to a chinlock and lets the geek get his shit in before dropping his elbow to finish at 1:14. Since when is a city worker ever in a hurry to finish a job?
Kwang v. Tony Roy
Really bringing out the big guns for the live show, I see. Kwang pounds him down and finishes with a leg lariat at 0:45.
The King’s Court with Ted Dibiase and Paul Bearer. Paul Bearer promises again that his Undertaker will destroy Dibiase’s Undertaker, so Ted brings out an Undertaker to challenge that. Bearer gets all uppity with him and gets choked out, but luckily the lights flicker on and off and everyone is too freaked out to continue the beatdown. This feud was so obviously running on fumes at this point, and they still had two weeks left until Summerslam!
Mabel v. Raymond Roy
Mabel pounds away and puts him down with a big boot. Corner splash and middle rope elbow finish at 2:30.
Jeff Jarrett v. Scott Taylor
Taylor gets a sunset flip for two, but Jarrett lays him out and pounds away in the corner. As ever, the heel stops to point at his head and gets cradled for two. Geez, that even works with jobbers. Taylor keeps coming with a bodypress, but misses and Jarrett goes to work on the leg. Figure-four finishes at 1:30. Afterwards, Oscar and Mabel come out and cut a vicious BATTLE RAP on Jarrett to build up their Summerslam match, but Lowell is pretty far from 8 Mile.
Next week: It’s Sunday Night Slam, which is actually the next one listed in the RAW shows. So that’s Lex Luger v. Crush, Diesel v. Typhoon, and Bull Nakano v. Heidi Lee Morgan! Was there something on that Monday night? Tennis or something?
I think Rock loses points, fairly, by cycling through the same SEVERAL catchphrases in most promos. Not that is delivery is bad or anything, but surely a better trash talker is one who doesn't need to rely on that (Punk, Austin, Jericho) outside of their one or two.
ReplyDeleteOn the plus side, at least Bischoff and Hogan have finally gotten too old to tank any more companies. The only thing Bischoff can even tank anymore is Scott Baio's career.
ReplyDeleteWas it just me but back when I was a mark I use to imagine how good a wrestler was by how fast they beat those no name jobbers.
ReplyDeleteMs Garcia, let us suppose my genitalia goes by the moniker of a flaky pastry. Would you be interested in sampling said pastry?
ReplyDeleteBcull82@aol.com
ReplyDeleteNot that Punk should be high on the list or anything, but his best promos were when he was borderline "shooting" on someone. When the current product relies on scripted promos and bland deliveries, Punk was doing something different.
ReplyDeleteSavage's last WWE appearance came from the 10/17/94 Raw tapings, saving Luger from Backlund's chicken wing that aired on Halloween night. A week later, Vince bade Savage farewell.
ReplyDeleteA quick check of Cawthon's History of WWE says that Savage's last WWE match came in Germany in mid-September 1994, teaming with Bret and going over on Owen and Neidhart. There's some odd cocktail trivia.
Speaking of trash talking, Paul Roma is the biggest cocksucker in wrestling, hands down.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InFRnNfH59o
He's sucked more cocks than Pat Patterson? Shit.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure, but he probably did suck Patterson's dick (hopefully forcibly) thereby becoming the biggest cocksucker in wrestling history.
ReplyDeleteOh it's like a "lineal world champ" type-deal. Gotcha.
ReplyDeleteDusty found out about it and said "you done cockthucked the betht cockthuckah of ahl tahm!"
ReplyDeleteNo, but if we went by that logic today, does that mean Rusev is the greatest wrestler currently in WWE? I mean, that schlub Cena needs 20+ minutes to finish someone off.
ReplyDeleteAt one point, the Big Four PPVs were all on different days. WrestleMania on Sunday afternoon, SummerSlam on Monday nights, Survivor Series on Thanksgiving Eve, and the Royal Rumble on Saturdays (in years where there was no bye week before the Super Bowl, so it wouldn't go up against the Conference title games).
ReplyDeletePretty sure 10 was the last WM with a 4pm EST start, and '94 or '95 was the last mid-week Survivor Series.
When was the last time Cena wrestled an undercarder, though?
ReplyDeleteHey now, don't go bringing logic into this, mister!
ReplyDeleteBecause he came back
ReplyDeleteTrash talking is supposed to be entertaining, so what on earth is Punk doing on this list?!
ReplyDeleteI encounter enought tattooed, fashionably cynical, psuedo-intellectual know-it-all's in real life. I never wanted one in WWE, boring me to tears with his interminable monologues.
Otherwise, good list.
1994 was the last Wednesday Survivor Series.
ReplyDeleteHere's one for ya: Friday is the only day of the week that has never had a live WWE PPV.
I'd take Andre off that list just for LISTEN TO ME WHEN I'M TALKIN' TO YA. That heel turn, man.
ReplyDeleteLet's...do...THIS?
ReplyDeleteHis best promo wasn't even in the WWE
ReplyDeleteI don't mind watching them now, because of the nostalgia and due to the fact that even bad episodes only kill about 45 minutes of time.
ReplyDeleteWay to upvote yourself, dick.
ReplyDeleteGood call. That reunited DX shit was far more unwatchable than the DoD.
ReplyDeleteYeah man, at least be like the rest of us and upvote yourself as a guest from another device.
ReplyDeleteTNA is WCW. It’s
ReplyDeletebeen run by pretty much all the same people who would’ve ended up taking over WCW
had it survived. I made peace with the death of WCW after the Bischoff era in
TNA when it became clear to me that WCW would never, ever have recovered under
his leadership in 2001 onwards. And who would have stepped in after Bischoff?
Probably the Jarretts or the Carters….
Which is why some of us think Rocks stinks as a promo. Last time I checked the point of running a wrestling company was to make money and when one of employees manages to destroy any chance another one has of drawing then they suck. Just because his put downs were funny, didn't not make them any better than the crap HHH came up with last year.
ReplyDeleteI woulda liked to see hbk and dusty rhodes get put on it but still one of the better lists to me. Glad to see cm punk get some well deserved love on the list. Even if im the only one
ReplyDeleteOr the guy that gets burned is supposed to be good enough to come back with another burn. Which billy was not
ReplyDeleteYes I forgot bout Lawler. Wanna talk quick witted. From the time he debuted in 92 or 93 until became permanent on commentary he was one of the best at insulting his opponents
ReplyDeleteWhat - no love for Dusty?
ReplyDeleteDOA vs Los Boiricuas, again! Hurrah!
ReplyDeleteI had a VCR with a "set timer" option and fast forward on the remote.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking to myself reading this that there were still a couple months of Savage left.
ReplyDeleteThat timeline puts the farewell from VKM a couple days past my birthday, which is why I had November in my head.
I just watched the Arn Anderson one last night. What delivery. Arn must've been crying in the back after that.
ReplyDeleteI'm inclined to put Buh Buh Ray Dudley on the list based solely on the Heatwave '99 promo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnbGnfkDlmE
ReplyDeleteThe Kid was actually getting some protection there.
ReplyDeleteThey protected everyone. That's really my biggest peeve with this period. Vince was afraid of hurting anyone because he didn't trust anyone to carry the ball. If he had faith in his champion then he wouldn't feel the need to protect every single person on the roster.
Anyone find it weird that Owen was getting the Semi Main event WWF Title shot the following week, while the Kid WASN'T EVEN ON THE CARD.... Yet the Kid beats Owen by DQ, after he clearly has him beat?
ReplyDeleteThat's the prideful way.
ReplyDeleteI'd say this guy is the best trash talker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7gIpuIVE3k
ReplyDeleteI'm fine with this list. For once. No denying Austin at number one.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather be openly shameless about it, brother.
ReplyDeleteWell you know something, dude, this CM Punk guy is in the Hulkster's spot on the list.
Brother I was selling out Madison Square Garden when Punk was working in bingo halls half-empty with plump Matt Hardy fangirls and neckbearded smarks. Brotherrrr brother brother.
Brother.
My only beef is Hogan being left off. Hogan talked a lot more people into a building than Punk ever did.
ReplyDeleteSo basicaly the opposite of todays problem then?
ReplyDeleteOh it still is
ReplyDeleteFruity Pebbles!
ReplyDeleteI find it humorous this is the list HHH gets left off of after yesterdays debate on the subject
ReplyDeleteIt kind of made sense to protect everyone on TV back then, as the major revenue was still the house show business. These days, house shows really don't matter, and it's all about TV/PPVs/Specials, so we'll see them lose on TV regardless.
ReplyDeleteSlow clap.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who enjoyed Jericho's mic work in wcw but thought his wwe stuff was clumsy and lame? He was awesome in 97-98.
ReplyDeleteCory graves? ;)
ReplyDeleteFlair is number one for me. And not even for the bragging about material possessions, which is highly entertaining, but for his selling of the match.
ReplyDeleteFlair would always strive to put over the opponent just as much as he put over himself. Which is logical because if you build up your opponent AND yourself, then it's gonna leave the fans wanting to buy a ticket to see who wins.
(paraphrasing) "Dick Slater! He's a real bad dude! He's beaten up more football players and more guys in bars across this country, then anyone I know!"--and that was Flair's OPPONENT for the upcoming show!
I also like how Flair would just put over the entire promotion itself. Made it seem like there were a bunch of top-tier guys who at any time could be champ. Witness Flair's Golden Spoon promo (one of my favourites). He is just rallying behind the NWA (in the face of WWF's Survivor Series attack).
Flair is the man, and number one in my books.
Hercules used to tease him that if roma only did a couple favors for terry Garvin that they would have been tag champs. Seriously
ReplyDeleteI now surrender the world world tag team title to ted dibiase
ReplyDeleteTo me, the Savage / Steph rumours have their credibility severely hurt by the genuine send-off by Vince on Raw. The dude was leaving, and going to the competition, and Vince seemed very emotional in saying goodbye.
ReplyDeleteThe counter argument is that Vince found out about Steph and Macho AFTER Savage had left and gone to WCW.
Keep the flame burning.
I agree. But he did rely on the same shit since 1982
ReplyDeleteI've mentioned this before, but the Kid Rock WWF history video had Savage all over it in 2002 and 2003... Then at a Raw in the summer of 2004, they aired it before the show, and all of the Savage parts were edited out. (Savage was still included in it at the 2 shows I attended in 2003). So I think the falling out must have happened sometime in that time period.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that WWE was nice enough to give Punk a spot.
ReplyDeleteAnd he got my attention from those unique promos.
ReplyDeleteYes, but in the beginning, WCW looke more like a home for old people with all the 80s guys and gimmicks and stories: Ricky Steamboat, Paul Orndorff, Terry Funk, Arn Anderson and then Hogan, Bossman, Duggan, Beefcake etc.
ReplyDeleteHowever when the "new generation" came to WCW like Hall, Nash, 123 Kid or ECW guys like Raven, Saturn etc. they looked bigger than the WWF.
On the other side, WWF had always a bigger ring, so for me, they always were the bigger league. ;) Your ratings can be in the skies but when your ring is so small, that it looked stupid with big guys, you are not a big company. ;)
Yeah, he really did do that.
ReplyDelete:throws mic down:
ReplyDeleteNot giving a crap will do that to you.
ReplyDelete:baby voice:
ReplyDeleteYou can't see me.....
Scotty 2 Hotty should have busted out The Worm on Double J.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was just gonna say that when I read Phil's reply. Essentially, it's proof of Billy's shittiness as a performer that he was unable to come back from this (Edge did the same thing later when he insisted that he wasn't going to "Billy Gunn this King of the Ring reign").
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's Billy Gunn so who gives a shit. Fans would STILL be giving Rock shit if he'd buried someone like Jericho in this manner (sorta like how they won't forgive Nash for squashing Wrath, or HHH's Reign of Terror), but instead he just annihilated one of the biggest recurring annoyances out there.
Though the WWF did Billy no favors with that feud- Rock destroyed him on the mic, he lost the big SummerSlam match and was humiliated afterwards, and then he just farted around. It'd take a long time before they REALLY gave up on him, however.
A mix of the two would work for me. How about having the first hour of a three hour RAW with some enhancements talent putting over up and coming stars?
ReplyDeleteRock went through a period where he was so over, he literally just did the same spiel each week- even to just random non-wrestlers in the back. But he switched it up when it came to the biggest stuff, and earns points for that.
ReplyDeleteIt's still bizarre to me to see Jobber Matches go for less than a minute, or only barely over. For some reason, I recall Jobber Matches taking SEVERAL minutes sometimes. Maybe it was just a Saturday Morning thing (I didn't get RAW for years). One notable bout was in the early days of The Ringmaster, where Austin took what seemed like an ETERNITY to put away some nobody- I thought he was gonna fail right out of the gate with an introduction like THAT.
ReplyDeleteSo what would have happened in 04? I have always wondered about this and the Hogan rumor because it's just so weird that the 2nd or 3rd biggest star in the company Pre 94 never had a make nice comeback. When he, from stuff I've heard anyway, seemed to have much less drama with vince as far as holding up for money or political head ache than a lot of other guys
ReplyDeletethis. I guess unfortunately at that point it all came down to just one thing: production value. even at its peak, WCW didn't look as good as the WWF did.
ReplyDeleteIt was so weird, I knew that video by heart, and suddenly it stuck out like a sore thumb that he was removed from the jump (Snuka/Savage/Hardy) and the twirl (Savage/Shawn/Angle) scenes. I was like "Vince must be REALLY pissed off at him". So IF the Steph rumors are true, it's possible that he found out about it during that period.
ReplyDeleteI think they vary. I think they went extra short here on Raw because they would do one long match and then wanted to keep the pace quick for the show.
ReplyDelete...I guess Savage had to stringy of hair to fuck his daughter
ReplyDeleteInteresting format for Raw. You could just watch the beginning to get the real main event and then just turn the damn tv off.
ReplyDeleteno, I was doing that too. the exception of course being if one of the heel "took his time" on purpose (like Yokozuna going through all of his signature moves although in kayfabe he could have already pinned the guy after his legdrop).
ReplyDeleteYeah, I remember noticing the Kid jobbing a lot while watching those big PPV Collection sets. He was depicted as a serious threat and a guy who'd want to see wrestle, but he was pretty much ALWAYS losing matches.
ReplyDeleteYea I wonder why they did that back then. Its like with the SNME but in that case it made sense because it was going till 1 am and much like SNL they front load the show and toss the bad or unusual stuff out in the last half hour.
ReplyDeletemost of the jobber matches did take more than just one minute.
ReplyDeleteafair most of the Challenge/Superstars jobber matches ran between two and four minutes.
I guess when I think Trash Talkers I like loud and obnoxious which is why I was taken aback at Jake Roberts being so high.
ReplyDeleteAlso, what about Zandig?
ReplyDeletenot as amazing as the original but still good:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq4A1J3CnFY
Steve Austin might give him a run for his money. because Austin was good... but the best ever? no way.
ReplyDeleteyou didn't think his run as delusional "greatest champion ever" was entertaining?
ReplyDeletecongratulations, you have just convinced me to spend the next hour with watching old Flair promos.
ReplyDeleteugh. thanks for reminding me of that horrible Rock/Punk feud.
ReplyDeleteyeah while watching and we were down to the final 2 I figured it had to be Austin and Big Dust. Totally forgot about Punk.
ReplyDeleteI love on his DVD where he mentions this and says how he uses "large monosyllabic words . . . " Monosyllabic obviously meaning the opposite of what he wanted to say. Also kinda ironic that monosyllabic is polysyllabic.
ReplyDeleteI fucking hated the whole "strudel" thing and of course that is what they always decide to show.
ReplyDeleteCould the change simply have something to do with the fact that Savage debuted in TNA in November 2004 (at TNA's first monthly PPV)? I know that's a few months after you saw the video, but maybe it came down the pipeline that Savage was going to do start appearing in TNA and WWE didn't want to promote him. That was right around the time that TNA was airing on Fox Sports and arguably seemed to be going somewhere (as opposed to 90% of the rest of its history).
ReplyDeleteSavage's "run" in TNA was the drizzling shits, but perhaps Vince was concerned that Savage would end up as the face of the company since he was undoubtedly the most famous wrestler the promotion ever had to that point. You know how Vince is about promoting his competition.
I actually wasn't aware of that, so that COULD be a theory... Only thing is, it seems like this is something that Vince NEVER forgave Savage for, as per the hall of fame shunning. So was Vince THAT scolded that Savage appeared in a company that's not even on WWE's radar? I guess it's possible, I guess only Vince knows.
ReplyDeleteThe thing with Austin is it wasnt so much great content or telling stories it was his delivery and his intensity. He could take just a simple "Jackass" and make it a great putdown because of how he said it.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Its a good thing they said it was the Top 10 Trash Talkers instead of "Talk-People-into-Buildings" huh?
ReplyDelete"everybody talks about 'the best there is, the best there was', all the other crap. 'the excellence of execution'. Bret, cliches are cliches and an ass whippin is an ass whippin and that's exactly what you're gonna get tonight at the hands of Stone Cold Steve Austin."
ReplyDeleteI loved that the Flair, Savage, The Rock and Austin dvd/bd releases all had a portion of classic promos/interview segments.
ReplyDeleteWhen was the Savage SmackDown magazine article? 2002? They interviewed and profiled him in that.
ReplyDeleteSaw all the jobbers before I looked back at the location of the show and knew it was Northeast right away... Raymond Roy was Pierre the Mountie in the NEWA and was their John Cena for years. Nick Barbary was from RI as well, plus Scotty from Maine.
ReplyDeleteScott Taylor! Funny to see Attitude Era guys as New Generation jobbers.
ReplyDeleteYea I don't remember exactly the matches billy had on raw following his kotr win but I know the ppvs he lost two straight ppvs in a row. But hell now that I think about angle lost three in a row and he turned out fine somehow
ReplyDeleteNo Duke "The Dumpster" Droese? All the guy did was talk trash
ReplyDeleteNo competition. Nitro wasn't until September of '95, iirc, so they could do the main match first, and then angles and jobber matches after.
ReplyDeleteYou could say the same about Heenan too. They were both good talkers with old joke books. I thought Cornette was better, but I tend to always pick NWA guys over WWF guys.
ReplyDeleteI know both guys worked both (if you count WCW as at least being NWA-ish) but that's how I remember them
Just thought of this yesterday: Savage vs the WWF around this time is probably the only time in history a wrestler left a company because he wanted to work MORE.
ReplyDeleteA lot of Dusty's stuff was a Billy Graham impression, who was doing an Ali impression. A copy of a copy.
ReplyDeleteI never saw the appeal of Dusty, in ring or out. But enough other people did, so I concede that I'm probably missing something.
He reminds me of a Ty Cobb quote. They asked Ty if he could at least say something positive about Babe Ruth. Ty said, "Well, he runs pretty good for a fat man".
Dusty worked pretty good for a fat man.
Well, it isn't like he didn't get paid really well in WCW, either. I've never heard exact numbers, but based on what a lot of other top guys were getting, you gotta think it was really good.
ReplyDeleteRaymond Roy was his actual name... he was an indie wrestler in RI. He sometimes went as Roy Raymond for WWF job duty too.
ReplyDeleteYeah 1995 was the first year everything moved to Sunday night. I was pretty sad when Survivor Series moved.
ReplyDelete94 Rumble was definitely Saturday.
at least according to HHH new blu ray he wanted to go to WWF at least in part because they ran so many more shows that WCW. Obviously what they had in mind for him and money could be involved but it was part of it.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think the simplest explanation is correct. In 2004 , it was the TNA signing that was mentioned on here as a possible reason for Vince's supposed anger. Then, Savage didn't need the money to come in for a HoF appearance, and/or Vince never offered him enough to make it worth Savage's time.
ReplyDeleteFeels good! Plus, I get to be White Coat Security.
ReplyDeleteSee below. I already made that joke.
ReplyDeleteWait a minute. Did he just openly and proudly admit to giving Steamboat a bad back injury on purpose? Fuck him. No one should be doing that in the business.
ReplyDeleteI'm amusing myself picturing how much different Pulp Fiction would have been if the big legdrop replaced the adrenaline shot
ReplyDeleteI feel honoured to have done as much. Enjoy.
ReplyDeleteSo did I!
ReplyDeleteA little surprised they didn't somehow shoehorn Triple H onto this list. At least it shows that he doesn't regard himself as one of the greatest talkers of all time.
ReplyDeleteRock relied on the same stuff since 98 and people love him.
ReplyDeleteI guess I should just can my post then.
ReplyDeleteAnd the match itself sucked.
ReplyDeleteJimmy Hart and Paul Bearer could have been potential inclusions, too. Foley as well, imo.
ReplyDeleteI love Eaton to death but he talked like he had a mouthful of mashed potatoes.
ReplyDeleteI think it's more of a matter of WWE being too lazy to edit the show. I think all these WWE Network shows were made over a year ago.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't a great trash talker but when he did an emotional promo he was amazing. When he asked Dustin to let him be his tag partner? Maybe my favorite promo ever.
ReplyDeleteMy introduction to WCW was around that time (Hogan's signing brought me in) and that storyline with Dusty and Dustin was awesome.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGG1QGU1VEg
I totally agree about Punk. But disagree when you lump Jericho in with Rocky, Flair, and Piper. I think Jericho's one of the most overrated wrestlers (in ring, on the mic, and in his own mind) of all-time. And I like him. I'm a Jericho fan. He's good. But he's not great.
ReplyDeleteMark Henry is the best in-match shit-talker there is, based on his 2011-12 run. Love the way he angrily taunts a downed opponent; never the same verbiage twice.
ReplyDeleteHogan and HBK too.
ReplyDeleteAlso worth noting that not only do we agree that this list is fairly accurate, but that nobody on here is a current WWE talent. Jericho only pops in seasonally, and Punk's done. Says a lot about script-writers and micromanagement neutering the roster.
ReplyDeleteAw, no need to be down in the dumps about it.
ReplyDeleteHawk no-sold Meng?! He must have gotten some good shit that night.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if you got a better job you could afford a cell phone and it would tell you one when you got an email, and since disqus sends an email notification you would have known instantly.
ReplyDelete