Welcome back to a quiet Sunday as we round out the long
weekend.
Today’s Question:
What was the most
intelligence insulting wrestling segment you’ve ever seen?
We’ll look back on your answers tomorrow. To jump right in
to the discussion, hit the comments button above, or scroll to the end of the
article.
Yesterday, I asked you about the most ill conceived heel
turn in wrestling history, and you guys delivered in spades. Your answers are
below.
flamingtoilet: Duggan joining Team Canada. After making his
entire career as Mr. YOO-ESS-AYYY! and waving the flag nonstop, he suddenly
shaves his beard and becomes a Maple Leaf-loving, O-Canada singing cohort of
Lance Storm and company less than a year after he refused to renounce the flag
after losing the Revolution?
Truth be told, I think Russo’s plan was to turn Duggan
around the time he was feuding with the Revolution the first time, only he got
fired before he could get it done. As soon as he came back, he made sure to
right his wrongs, and took it out on lifetime patriot Jim Duggan. I once wrote
an article detailing 5 things Vince Russo killed in WCW, and Jim Duggan was on
the list. I just reposted on my WCW blog, so check it out here (shill shill
shill): http://shootingstar-press.blogspot.ca/2014/07/5-wcw-characters-systematically.html
White Thunder: CM Punk in 2012 was awful. He was one of the
most over guys on the roster, fans didn't buy it. He did everything short of
stomping a box of puppies in the ring and still got cheered, and not good
"cool heel" heat but actual babyface heat. He ended playing a cheesy
Southern style heel and exploiting his Memphis fetish, just awful. When he
finally got the chance to be the actual last match on a PPV not involving Cena
he choked big time failing to do his promised "Flair carry job"
against Ryback. That match sucked. Now had they turned Rock heel instead of
Punk, fans would have eaten that shit up with a fork and spoon. Imagine how
cool that Mania season would've been with Hollywood Rock battling CM Punk and
then going to Mania against Cena.
I have to disagree with you here. Had CM Punk not turned
heel, he wasn’t getting through the summer with the belt and he knew it. The
writing was on the wall. If anyone was hurt by his heel turn, it was Ryback who
was running as hot as any babyface at the time, but they couldn’t put the strap
on him because The Rock had been promised to beat the longest running champ in
25 years. I realize a lot of people weren’t interested in re-running Punk as a
heel, but it was the only option he had if he wanted to be taken seriously as
the lead dog.
Tom Dawkings: Austin Aries in 2012. He worked his way up
in TNA to become the most over face in the company and then inexplicably turned
heel because he was feuding with Jeff Hardy and TNA wanted to back Hardy as the
#1 face in the company.
jobber123: My answer is one that doesn't matter in the
grand scheme of things but it underscores most of what's wrong with the wwe.
Titus O'Neal turning heel on Darren Young and splitting up the ptp was
terrible. Was the ptp going to revolutionize the industry? Of course not. But
they were a fun tag team that was over and helped round out the roster. Theres
a certain value to having over mid card tag teams the crowd can pop for. But
the wwe turned one guy and broke up the team. For what? Neither guy got a push
and both are half as over as before. Just a waste.
I’m with you. The tag-team division these days is so weak,
that the company’s in no position to be rushing through them, but of course
that’s only a point if the bookers actually cared about it. The division was
positively loaded as we headed into this millennium, but ever since the Edge
and Christian split at the end of 2001, and the subsequent dicking around of
the Hardys, the division has been an afterthought.
Glen4321: Cesaro's heel turn from the week after
Wrestlemania XXX was a bad heel turn. Cesaro seemed to turn face at
wrestlemania by showing Big Show respect. Then they turned him again by
aligning him with Heyman. He seems to have stagnated since. He has a very face
oriented moveset, and the fans want to cheer him, so they probably should have
let him turn face. Also the fact that Bryan was injured would have opened up a
spot for him higher up the card as a face.
I thought for sure they were going to have Heyman be the
ultimate tweener between his two clients, especially after his promo the night
after Mania, but it wasn’t meant to be. Cesaro continues to tread water, and
while this pairing certainly hasn’t worked, I’m not sure we’re not going to be
seeing bigger things from Cesaro yet …
Petrock: TNA does not get enough credit for fucking
up Monty Brown when they had him join Planet Jarrett.
Jared Bellow: McMahon being announced as the Higher Power
was a really bad one but it doesn't get the shit it should for being a bad heel
turn because Vince McMahon turned back and forth so many times. It was at a
time where they really needed to keep following the direction of McMahon losing
power and control to build up the Undertaker more and start going down some
different avenues. The nonsensical alignment with the Ministry of Darkness
began 15 years of nonstop authority angles and GMs; a cycle of bullshit we
still lament today.
Great choice. Vince was the one choice *nobody* wanted to
see. It was too obvious, and given that he’d gone from being the guy who
screwed Bret and tried the same with Austin, to a sympathetic, vulnerable
babyface was a lost opportunity. The entire angle was sharted away within 5
minutes anyway, when Stephanie and Linda sold their controlling stock to Steve
Austin, so the previous several months was rendered moot. ATTITUDE ERA~!
BeardMoney: Bret Hart's heel turn in WCW was terrible
and made it clear the company had no idea what to do with the guy. It really
left him in the middle of nowhere--not an actual member of the NWO; not a rival
of the NWO (meaning no Hogan match); just a bitter dude who really wanted to
make sure everyone knew that he'd been screwed.
I’m tempted to ask which heel turn, but truthfully every WCW
turn was ridiculous. The guy came in the middle of the most controversial storm
in wrestling history, starts stuff with Hogan right from the get-go, and …
promptly wastes most of the year wrestling DDP and Lex Luger, while turning
heel as some vague nWo ally. Then, his brother passes away, Bret is as
sympathetic as ever, and he joins the nWo for whatever reason was convenient
that week. Vince was right – WCW had no idea what to do with the Hitman
character.
davidbonzaisaldanamontgomery:
Eddie in 2003, when he was over as fuck
in Los Guerreros then they tried to turn him via putting Tajiri through his
windshield. Except that he was so over, they still popped for him. It was
awesome when Eddie tried to cut a heel promo the next week on SD, saying stuff
like "FROM NOW ON, I'M ONLY GONNA LOOK OUT FOR NUMBER ONE" and the
crowd was still cheering like crazy that they didn't even bother using the heat
machine.
I think it speaks volumes about where Eddie was as a
performer that even when a heel turn failed, rather than have his character
tailspin, he managed to turn it into World Championship babyface heat. The turn
led to the era of Lie, Cheat, and Steal, I can’t agree with you.
Devin Harris: My vote is Flair after 99. I don't know why
WCW kept trying to turn the guy heel. No one was interested in booing him after
the Horseman reunion.
Especially after getting screwed around all year by Eric
Bischoff in REAL LIFE which everyone knew about. The nWo turns his own son
against him, tries to kill him in a field, Eric Bischoff having been stripped
of his power does everything Flair asks of him poorly, but he hits Hogan with a
tire-iron so he’s a heel. WCW, ladies and gentlemen.
Extant1979: A lot of the heel turns mentioned so far
were bad, but most ill-conceived? The most ill-conceived heel turn in recent
memory was turning Michael Cole heel a couple years back. While commentary with
Cole and King has never been as good as the all-star lineup we had in the 1980s
and early 1990s, it was downright horrendous when Cole was heeling it up,
ostensibly as the play-by-play guy. It handcuffed the commentary even worse
than it was, not to mention leading to one of the worst WrestleMania decisions
in a long time - Cole winning by DQ over Jerry Lawler. There have been a LOT of
stupid heel turns over the years, none of them made less sense than turning the
play-by-play announcer.
They’ve tried it a bunch of times (Tony Schiavone, Jim Ross,
Mike Tenay), and it never, ever works. Most of the time it’s recognized quickly
and the status quo returns, but they drew this out for about 2 years. I’ll give
them credit for taking it as far as they could, by even giving Cole his own
private bulletproof booth for protection, but let’s all agree to leave the
announcers out of the storylines whenever possible.
Marv Cresto: Gotta be Austin at 17 as so many others have
said, unlike Hogan's turn that kicked business up a notch Austin's turn is
pretty much the bookend of the highest grossing era in history. Despite being
some of the best character work of his career it all just seemed so forced and
pointless, and then the Invasion happened and the business itself became such a
clusterfuck there was just no saving it.
This was one of the most popular answers of the day. I don’t
think anyone disagrees that Austin probably needed to try something different,
after 3 years on top as the beer drinking, ass kicking Texas Rattlesnake.
Everyone’s character grows stale without change. With that in mind, Austin as a
heel was the least preferred choice. He tried. Man did he try, and he went
balls to the wall. His work through the InVasion pay-per-view was top notch,
but once he joined WCW the entire concept of his turn in the first place was
now nonsense, and he was just doing stupid heely things to stay heel.
Unfortunately, Austin’s heart was no longer in it by the time he turned back,
he legitimately didn’t trust anyone, and one of the best performers in history
went out with a whimper instead of a bang. (Even though his last match was a
doozy)
ETB757: It's hard to get any more pointless than
Bischoff's "BIG SURPRISE" in 2000, which was that stupid Goldberg
heel turn.
This was another very popular choice. Goldberg hadn’t done
anything of note since dropping the belt some 18 months earlier, but this was
only because the company had it in their heads that the direction Goldberg
needed was the “chase” but without ever pulling the goddamn trigger. Despite
that he was the only organic product that fans really loved and identified with
the brand. Of course, they needed to turn him heel, because Bischoff promised a
major pay-per-view happening that Vince McMahon couldn’t do anything about, but
had nothing in his pocket. It’s making me mad just thinking about it all over
again. Then he did heelish things like kill Jim Duggan dead on Nitro, and eat
Scott Hall’s contract (LITERALLY). Then he turned face against and lost to Buff
Bagwell and we never saw him in WCW again.
BooBoo1782: As another commenter noted, it's awfully
recent to be in the conversation, but the Daniel Wyatt turn was a really bad
idea. Thing is, I can see why WWE wanted to do it. I still like the idea of the
Wyatts adding new family members, particularly former babyfaces. I still think
there's a great arc that could be done along these lines with Zack Ryder - he
was Cena's friend and it got him nowhere, so now he's with the Wyatts because
he knows what Cena really is - but it would involve Ryder getting enough TV
time for it not to be patently obvious that he was being brought back for the
express purpose of turning on Cena and joining the Wyatts. The problem was that
Creative was just so tone-deaf to how over Bryan was, and the crossover appeal
of the "Yes Movement" (tm). It was the right idea with the absolute
wrong guy, and I think it killed a lot of the momentum the Wyatt family angle had.
The only positives I can give this is the writers recognized
within weeks how bloody bad this deal was and hit the abort button as fast as
they could before his heat was hurt.
KJP: Hennig turning on the Horsemen anyone?
Though that one was not bad so much in concept as it was in the execution. The
last big faction feud WCW had in their arsenal and they couldn't wait to flush
it.
KJP, you win my heart here. Had Hennig been a Horsemen
member longer, it wouldn’t have been bad, but it’s like they could not wait to
screw over Flair and move Hennig into the coveted 19th guy on the
nWo totem pole slot. The Horsemen really needed to over here to help keep some
hope that WCW could beat the nWo threat, but it was more of the same.
Adam “Colorado”
Curry: Sting in 2000. Why the FUCK
would ANYONE think turning Sting heel would be a good idea? Oh yeah, Russo...
It was 1999, but you hit my choice square on the head.
In late 1996, Sting, the ultimate WCW loyalist, had his
integrity questioned by everyone including his closest friend Lex Luger
regarding the nWo. So humiliated and frustrated at the stupidity around him,
Sting hid in the rafters for the next 15 months, sulking and periodically
beating the ever loving shit out of the nWo with his baseball bat.
Going in to 1998 as the champion, Sting proceeds to get
dicked around by shady referees, fake fast counts, and somehow Hogan winds up
with the belt again. He is taken out by nWo ally Bret Hart and shelved for 6
months. Upon return, he wins the World Title against lifetime midcarder DDP,
only to defend it later that night and lose it back. So when he finally gets a
title shot against Hogan that fall, Sting makes the best of it, and 3-years
worth of frustration come boiling to the surface and he hits Hogan square in
the face with a baseball bat. How is this the work of a heel? He’s then booked
in a feud with Ric Flair … you know, the guy who turned on Sting about 14
different times from 1989 through 1995. Again, how is he the bad guy? The fans
flat out rejected the entire thing, and within 2 months Sting is back to face
status and hiding in the rafters.
Then he brawled in a graveyard and got set on fire later that night, but we’d all prefer to think that never happened.
Have a great day, BoD.
They had this 44 year old guy beat a former UFC heavyweight champion. I thought that was pretty silly.
ReplyDeleteAlso they made him lose to a dude that dresses like 12 year old on his returing match.
ReplyDeleteThe Muppets, Bob Barker, had no problem with Dule Hill, Shaq, the recent one in Brooklyn with Arnold and Joe Whatever-his-name-is.
ReplyDeleteThere's been more than a few good guest hosts.
I asked my girlfriend what she thought the most insulting I've ever made her watch was. She made it pretty clear that every Diva's segment ever has been insulting to her as a woman. She's only been watching with me for 3-4 years. She doesn't even know about Trish on her hands and knees, barking like a dog; or the Lita miscarriage stuff with Kane; Piggy James with LayCool. Bra and panties matches.
ReplyDelete"The way the WWE treats women is really why I don't like it." Preach on, sweetheart! You don't even know the half of it.
Oh, and remember the skinny 16 year old with all the tattoos who had like a 30 minute match with him?
ReplyDeleteThat was a good one.
ReplyDeleteStart showing to her Women's matches in Japan.
ReplyDeleteShe only puts up with it because I watch it. She says the treatment of women is what turns her off, but she's just not a wrestling chick.
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of famous, obvious ones (Katie Vick, for example) so, leaving those aside, I'm going to nominate the Wyatt Demon Child. In fact, that entire cage match could be nominated due to how utterly contrived and terrible the booking was, but the creepy wee kid at the end was pure, unadulterated Wrestlecrap.
ReplyDeleteWhen that Raw, along with the Benoit tribute show, become the only two Raws to not appear on the Network, we'll know why.
ReplyDeleteMy wife says the same thing and only tolerates wrestling because she knows I'm a fan. She has enjoyed the handful of Shimmer matches she's seen.
ReplyDeleteThis discussion of course made me look back at 2000 WCW, and I just can't help but laugh at how 2000 gave us two COMPLETELY opposite ends of the spectrum for the wrestling world. On one hand, WWF was putting on the best wrestling product we'd ever seen, while WCW was the absolute worst of wrestling.
ReplyDelete"Michael Cole's commentary should be on everybody's list."
ReplyDeleteFTFY.
I thought nWo 2000 had a shot because it was all main event guys and all ex-WWF guys.
ReplyDeleteSting getting attacked by dogs in a WCW PPV.
ReplyDeleteThe best part is JR's "Oh, son of a bitch" in his frustrated "this is shit" voice.
ReplyDeleteFor this I have to separate stuff that made no sense when you thought about it (higher power, black scorpion, Warrior in the mirror, any backstage segment where the fans see stuff but the opponent never sees it) and stuff that is genuinely embarassing. For the stuff that makes me look over my shoulder when I watch or change the channel hurredly is:
ReplyDelete1 Jameson.
2. Any Bushwhackers stuff
3. katie Vick
4. any of the midget "comedy"
5. choppy my pee-pee
6. Robocop in WCW
7. anytime in WCW when Russo booked wrestlers or announcers to break kayfabe about winners/losers, how matches were scripted, finishers, etc.
Not a wrestling segment but the most insulting thing recently is Russo expecting people to believe anything he says on Austin's podcast.
ReplyDelete"Let me be honest with you, Steeeeeeeve"
/lies
I'm pretty sure you're allowed to like the Bushwhackers ironically.
ReplyDeletewas that followed by, "I came into WCW and immediately doubled the ratings, but the corporate suits wouldn't let me put on two chicks eating each other out followed by six luchadores setting themselves on fire so I could grill some taco meat."
ReplyDeleteHow about Bob Orton in the mirror?
ReplyDeletehas there been a step ladder match yet?
ReplyDeletedusty's wrestling gorilla
ReplyDeletegeorge steele elctroshock
ReplyDeletehulking up
ReplyDelete1.) Referee bumps.
ReplyDelete2.) Wrestlers distracted by music
3.) Kicking out after multiple chair shots.
4.) Slow climbs up a ladder/over a cage.
5.) One wrestler beating two or more wrestlers in a match.
I didn't like Jarrett then. I don't like Jarrett now. My least favorite version ofJarrett has to be his Slap Nuts phase, but really they were all pretty awful. Pretty good head of hair on the guy at this time though.
ReplyDeleteI was so glad when HBK ended Jarrett's reign of terror with that title. I HATED Jarrett when I started following the product. Jarrett's loss is notable more for Dok Hendrix giving a coked out report about Jarrett and the Roadie arguing in the locker room after the match than anything else.
ReplyDeleteAnd "With My Baby Tonight" really wasn't a bad tune. It's forever ingrained in my memory because WWF TV showed it on EVERY show the entire month of July.
Vince Russo in any shoot is near the top of my list. He'll repeat himself 1000 times with lines like that for 'serious effect' and he's just so full of crap. The sad thing is I used to be a Russo defender back in the day, now I may hate him as much as Cornette.
ReplyDeleteScott Keith's review of that match is one of my favorite things he's written.
ReplyDeleteWow. Never met a person that defended Russon before.
ReplyDeleteI lol'd
ReplyDeletematch has been called underrated so many times, it is now overrated.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to add Big Dick Johnson and "New Years Baby" Big Show to that list. The New Years Baby Big Show was such a bad idea that the WWE refused to even put it on TV after they promised it. Think about that!
ReplyDeleteThat last paragraph illustrates how out of touch WWE is with the current culture.
ReplyDeleteI've got a facebook friend that is facebook friends with Russo and Ed Ferrera and has met them a couple times. He defends Russo like crazy. He's a really good guy. School teacher, aspiring stand up comic. 99% of the time I let it go unless he starts talking ratings or timelines where I pull some facts out.
ReplyDelete"Let's go Ziggler!"
ReplyDelete"Listen to the WWE Universe chanting for Sheamus!"
If he doesnt know Diesel is appearing in the Rumble (to the point that Taz says "holy shit"), then why would he say "311 pounds". If its for dramatic effect, why not just say "he looks jacked!"? It kinda ruins the "this is a legit shock" part if Cole immediately tells me Brock Lesnars exact weight during a holy shit shock moment
ReplyDeleteDouble J was in Spring Breakers. Your argument is invalid
ReplyDeleteOh, I won't deny that their hit ratio is about 1/50. But those rare ones were fun.
ReplyDeleteThat was basically it, he seems to be a compulsive liar who's got to where he's been through continuous blagging.
ReplyDeleteThe finish of the Cena/Bray cage match with that fucking stupid kid has to be near the top of any list, I thought we were beyond stuff like that, just do the job ffs.
ReplyDeleteI've been watching the entire Seinfeld series at work during these terrible double shift weekends, fucking show is classic.
ReplyDeleteWhat a... unique movie that was. I was actually OK with it till the ending which was so stupid and unbelievable I almost left the theater before it ended.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny because it's the go-to non offensive milquetoast show of the 90's and it's still full of transexual and gay and black and muslim and men and women jokes that could never air today.
ReplyDeleteIt's actually super edgy for 2014.
Oh geez, I'm really sorry to have to do this to you, really I am, but (assumes Donald Trump voice, points finger), "Ya Fiahhhd."
ReplyDeleteno, just no
ReplyDeleteThat's why it's weird to see people white knight for the divas. They are really bad in the ring, and they are offensive to women.
ReplyDeleteGreat match but I don't think it's *****
ReplyDeleteThis, but I still enjoyed the little kids on Raw segment.
ReplyDelete***** if there is such a thing in arbitrary review wrestling land. It's the perfect formula match that anyone could replicate but NO ONE could duplicate. That's pro wrestling folks.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of insulting your intelligence, The 2000 Great American Bash is on the live stream. I've never seen this show before (the last WCW ppv I ordered was 1999 Halloween Havoc, I think).
ReplyDeleteOMG What a lineup:
Sting/Vampiro in a "Human Torch" match
Kevin Nash v. Jeff Jarrett for the World Title
Hogan v. Kidman, it sounds like if Hogan loses he retires.
Ric Flair v. David Flair, it sounds like if Ric loses he retires.
something with Tank Abbot and Scott Steiner (something about an Asylum???)
I'm not sure I could try to come up with a worse slate of matches with that lineup of stars.
Glen can handle it.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone talked about Hogan/Warrior from WCW in '98? The smoke, Warrior disappearing and reappearing, Warrior in the mirror that only Hogan could see... I literally can't think of anything worse.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like Fallen Angel Christopher Daniels is the referee for this WCW match (2000). Is that possible?
We've talked about the mirror bit in general, but not that specific one.
ReplyDeleteCan someone please give me context on this? I never saw this air, I just know its used as a joke with ridiculous frequency.
ReplyDeleteJarrett was the Alberto Del Rio of his time. Perfectly acceptable skills-wise, but a complete bore nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteThat's a wonderful comparison.
ReplyDelete"Arguably, the best match in 1995."
ReplyDeleteThats easily debatable
This old Cole segment has to be in the top 30 at least.
ReplyDeletehttp://youtu.be/aEK80zqUXWQ
What match did you have in mind?
ReplyDeleteShawn took one on the craziest bumps I'd ever seen up until that pint.
ReplyDeleteI remember Samoa Joe running around TNA with a machete trying to take out the Main Event Mafia. He even disfigured Scott Steiner so bad that Steiner had to wear a mask for 1 whole week before ditching it with no scarring. If I'm not mistaken, all of this led to a swerve with Joe joining the Main Event Mafia.
ReplyDeleteProbably Shawn/Razor or Bret/Diesel.
ReplyDeleteForgot about that, and you are correct.
ReplyDeleteIn late 2011, The WWE Roster voting no confidence in HHH being charge and fearing for their safety after all these years, because FUCKING MIZ & R-TRUTH reeked havoc ONCE!
ReplyDeleteYeah, that was just stupid.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's the story of how TNA managed to cool off Joe.
ReplyDeleteAnd how Okada went on to greatness.....
ReplyDelete