I really enjoyed original NXT Barrett where he had the flower in his jacket. No idea why they didn't run with that incarnation of Barrett. My 2nd favorite would have to be the current Bad News run that he was on.
Another theory is that Barrett, for all of his "flaws," (uh, what are those again?) is a solid worker who works well with others in the ring and in the office whereas Ziggler ignores the office when they continually tell him to stop overselling everything and taking huge bumps in midcard matches while complaining about his status and posting jokes about killing yourself via alcohol poisoning with drinking games on Twitter.
It's not a matter of politics as much a matter of "this guy is a good employee, that guy is a shitty employee, so this guy gets chances that guy doesn't."
Sorry that one of the new Internet Folk Heroes is an asshole, but given that Punk spent years as the martyr on the cross, I guess there's precedent for it.
Charisma is charisma. Barrett was doing fine as the leader of the Nexus. Once he was on his own post-Nexus and then later repackaged as Bare Knuckle Barrett, he wasn't given any chances to show personality or character. The dude has charisma to lend. It's hard for anyone to display it, though, if you're only on TV to lose 4 minute matches.
Did the office tell Ziggler to stop taking huge bumps? Because even when they make it clear he has no future with the company they don't hesitate to throw him in ladder matches he won't win to take advantage of his huge bumps.
I agree, charisma is charisma, and Barrett didn't have it.
Also, to say that politics doesn't factor in is absolutely wrong, as politics afflicts nearly every work environment. Do I think Ziggler brings trouble on himself? Sure, but that doesn't justify screwing around with what works, either.
As for Barrett, I find his current character to be amusing, but I don't see it as main event level character. I always thought they should align him with William Regal.
That's how business works. All businesses. You can call it politics erroneously, but nobody's politicking here. Ziggler is not "working" better than anyone else on the roster who CAN take direction is and so he's seen as unimportant. That's no one's fault but his.
Everything that comes from backstage should be taken with a grain of salt, sure. Given related circumstances and current trends, I just find that easier to believe than some other reports is all.
Wanted to touch on your point about HHH getting over. They sure did get that done. I remember watching the Raws leading up to summerslam 99 and thinking, "How in the FUCK is HHH in the main event?", but by the time Backlash 2000 rolled around I was thinking, "Holy shit, will The Rock finally be able to stop this guy?"
HHH, from November 1999 to King of the Ring 2000, was arguably the most effective long-term heel WWE has ever had. I know that may seem crazy, but hear me out. WWE has never gone for sustained heel pushes, and the Hogan / Hart / HBK extended face title runs from 84-96 are clear examples of that. Hell, even Andre The Giant, who helped bring in one of the biggest gates ever, was turned heel over the span of just a couple of weeks, and lost his first big encounter as a bad guy.
HHH got to: -steal the boss's daughter -defeat the boss with the help of his turncoat daughter -Cleanly beat a Mick Foley who had transformed into his more evil persona, AND was getting his preferred type of match -Cleanly beat Foley again -Walk out of a Wrestlemania as a heel champ.
In fact, it's funny they don't take the time to give a heel sustained momentum like this again, because the proof is in the financial pudding. As Foley and others have alluded to, by having HHH go on that four month winning span, WWE got to pop a great Wrestlemania buyrate, AND do a bonus high buyrate for backlash.
The last time I felt a heel champ was gaining similar momentum was Orton's run in late '07 and early '08. He got to defeat HHH cleanly in a 3 stages of hell match, defeat HBK cleanly in an excellent match, defeat Jeff Hardy cleanly in a superfight that had been built tremendously, and even walk out of Mania (albeit not quite the main event) with the title. In the weeks that followed Orton continued to gain clean victories on Raw, and begun using the "Age of Orton" phrase. It would have been a ripe time to give an upper mid carder their first title reign with a bang, but instead Orton lost the belt in a hastily put together fatal four way.
He's over and he's a good worker who makes others look good. I'm not saying give him a superman push; I'm agreeing with Scott when he says that they shouldn't screw with him, i.e. take away what works (Vickie, AJ/Big E).
I didn't think Orton's reign was all that great and they messed up a lot. He got DQ'd the first time against HBK and had those lame stipulations at Survivor Series. Orton should have won clean with the RKO in both occasions if they wanted to put him over strong. No idea what they were thinking put Jericho in a title match so quickly. The buildup to his match with Hardy was great but the match itself was underwhelming. Hated the fact that Cena wanted to use his title shot at No Way Out.
Yep, that was a dumb comment on his part. In fact, during Austin's main event *face* run, (from WM 14 to his walking out in 2002) I only remember ONE match where he put a heel over 100% clean. HHH in the 3 stages of hell match.
rarely do heels win clean though, and even more rare is the heel that wins clean over a top 3 or 4 face. How often did Bret lose "clean" as a face when he was on top? Hogan certainly didn't. Nor did Bruno. I actually think it is more common now than it was in the pre cena era
Yep, I agree, and it says something that HHH still went over Austin.
Also, Bret put exactly 2 people over 100% clean during his run. Family member Davey Boy at Summerslam 1992, and Family member Owen at WM 10. (I don't count WM 12, there was a big "what if" with the unannounced overtime.)
so the same office that tells guys to find a way to get themselves over then tells guys to stop what is getting them over? I swear you can't win with Vince and WWE. Either you are chosen or you aren't. I don't buy the good employee argument. Plenty of good employees that spent 10 years with the company doing nothing
and a lot of people took issue with that win too. Why let HHH win if he was just going to lose to UT at WM? Why job the guy who was going to win the belt at WM? IF and it is a big IF, you buy that the Austin paranoia hell angle/turn was that well-thought out, then jobbing him to HHH to build on his fears of "not having it" anymore was sheer genius. But again I'm not sure how much of that was really planned and how much of that was people projecting storyline on the heel turn.
HHH was the rare heel I hated and cheered for because the guy was putting on great matches with everyone on the roster. His war with Austin in 2000-01 is amazing as well.
Take note - Barrett's injuries were caused by Undertaker being thrown or threw someone over the top rope and hitting his arm, this new injury is Jack Swagger recklessly hurling him into the barricades. It's not Barrett bumping improperly by but others injuring him.
In terms of theme music, I like Zigglers current theme way more than his last one. It infuriated me that he didn't get the WHC back from Del Rio after his concussion.
They blew any chance of making Barrett into a big new star when he couldn't beat Cena. The Nexus angle was hot, but pairing him with Cena was death. It's as if they thought just by pairing him with Cena was some sort of mega rub, but he HAD to get the better of him.
Seriously? Because a pure rookie did not beat the top guy of the past decade, he has zero chance to get over? That's a pretty ridiculous statement. He was nowhere near ready.
If management says "hey, cut this out" and you don't, you're gonna get screwed with, especially if you don't contribute anything that they can't get from someone who does take direction. Common sense.
Yep, there's a huge difference between playing the character of an anti-authority rebel, and actually being one. Lots of people don't seem to understand this. (cue people using cemented top guys standing up to vince as an example, which has zero to do with Dolph)
I really enjoyed original NXT Barrett where he had the flower in his jacket. No idea why they didn't run with that incarnation of Barrett. My 2nd favorite would have to be the current Bad News run that he was on.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry for your loss.
ReplyDeleteThat's a theory.
ReplyDeleteAnother theory is that Barrett, for all of his "flaws," (uh, what are those again?) is a solid worker who works well with others in the ring and in the office whereas Ziggler ignores the office when they continually tell him to stop overselling everything and taking huge bumps in midcard matches while complaining about his status and posting jokes about killing yourself via alcohol poisoning with drinking games on Twitter.
It's not a matter of politics as much a matter of "this guy is a good employee, that guy is a shitty employee, so this guy gets chances that guy doesn't."
Sorry that one of the new Internet Folk Heroes is an asshole, but given that Punk spent years as the martyr on the cross, I guess there's precedent for it.
(uh, what are those again?)
ReplyDeleteThat's some revisionist history. Before he started to find his niche as "Bad News", Barrett had the personality of a dirty dish towel.
Charisma is charisma. Barrett was doing fine as the leader of the Nexus. Once he was on his own post-Nexus and then later repackaged as Bare Knuckle Barrett, he wasn't given any chances to show personality or character. The dude has charisma to lend. It's hard for anyone to display it, though, if you're only on TV to lose 4 minute matches.
ReplyDeleteDid the office tell Ziggler to stop taking huge bumps? Because even when they make it clear he has no future with the company they don't hesitate to throw him in ladder matches he won't win to take advantage of his huge bumps.
ReplyDeleteI agree, charisma is charisma, and Barrett didn't have it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to say that politics doesn't factor in is absolutely wrong, as politics afflicts nearly every work environment. Do I think Ziggler brings trouble on himself? Sure, but that doesn't justify screwing around with what works, either.
Sorry to hear about the death in your family.
ReplyDeleteAs for Barrett, I find his current character to be amusing, but I don't see it as main event level character. I always thought they should align him with William Regal.
I always found Barrett was lacking in the personality/charisma department, but this Bad News gimmick is just awesome. Hope he recovers quickly.
ReplyDeleteIn ladder matches? No.
ReplyDeleteThat full somersault thing he does off monkey flips out of the corner in 5 minute throwaways on Raw? Yes.
That's how business works. All businesses. You can call it politics erroneously, but nobody's politicking here. Ziggler is not "working" better than anyone else on the roster who CAN take direction is and so he's seen as unimportant. That's no one's fault but his.
ReplyDeleteBut was he told not to do that and does it anyway?
ReplyDeleteI heard rumors about that, but as everything else, grain of salt.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure.
ReplyDeleteEverything that comes from backstage should be taken with a grain of salt, sure. Given related circumstances and current trends, I just find that easier to believe than some other reports is all.
ReplyDeleteSorry about the death in your family Scott.
ReplyDeleteWanted to touch on your point about HHH getting over. They sure did get that done. I remember watching the Raws leading up to summerslam 99 and thinking, "How in the FUCK is HHH in the main event?", but by the time Backlash 2000 rolled around I was thinking, "Holy shit, will The Rock finally be able to stop this guy?"
HHH, from November 1999 to King of the Ring 2000, was arguably the most effective long-term heel WWE has ever had. I know that may seem crazy, but hear me out. WWE has never gone for sustained heel pushes, and the Hogan / Hart / HBK extended face title runs from 84-96 are clear examples of that. Hell, even Andre The Giant, who helped bring in one of the biggest gates ever, was turned heel over the span of just a couple of weeks, and lost his first big encounter as a bad guy.
HHH got to:
-steal the boss's daughter
-defeat the boss with the help of his turncoat daughter
-Cleanly beat a Mick Foley who had transformed into his more evil persona, AND was getting his preferred type of match
-Cleanly beat Foley again
-Walk out of a Wrestlemania as a heel champ.
In fact, it's funny they don't take the time to give a heel sustained momentum like this again, because the proof is in the financial pudding. As Foley and others have alluded to, by having HHH go on that four month winning span, WWE got to pop a great Wrestlemania buyrate, AND do a bonus high buyrate for backlash.
The last time I felt a heel champ was gaining similar momentum was Orton's run in late '07 and early '08. He got to defeat HHH cleanly in a 3 stages of hell match, defeat HBK cleanly in an excellent match, defeat Jeff Hardy cleanly in a superfight that had been built tremendously, and even walk out of Mania (albeit not quite the main event) with the title. In the weeks that followed Orton continued to gain clean victories on Raw, and begun using the "Age of Orton" phrase. It would have been a ripe time to give an upper mid carder their first title reign with a bang, but instead Orton lost the belt in a hastily put together fatal four way.
He's over and he's a good worker who makes others look good. I'm not saying give him a superman push; I'm agreeing with Scott when he says that they shouldn't screw with him, i.e. take away what works (Vickie, AJ/Big E).
ReplyDeleteNobody put Triple H over, says Triple H.
ReplyDeleteWhich is just ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteI didn't think Orton's reign was all that great and they messed up a lot. He got DQ'd the first time against HBK and had those lame stipulations at Survivor Series. Orton should have won clean with the RKO in both occasions if they wanted to put him over strong. No idea what they were thinking put Jericho in a title match so quickly. The buildup to his match with Hardy was great but the match itself was underwhelming. Hated the fact that Cena wanted to use his title shot at No Way Out.
ReplyDeleteYep, that was a dumb comment on his part. In fact, during Austin's main event *face* run, (from WM 14 to his walking out in 2002) I only remember ONE match where he put a heel over 100% clean. HHH in the 3 stages of hell match.
ReplyDeleterarely do heels win clean though, and even more rare is the heel that wins clean over a top 3 or 4 face. How often did Bret lose "clean" as a face when he was on top? Hogan certainly didn't. Nor did Bruno. I actually think it is more common now than it was in the pre cena era
ReplyDeleteYep, I agree, and it says something that HHH still went over Austin.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Bret put exactly 2 people over 100% clean during his run. Family member Davey Boy at Summerslam 1992, and Family member Owen at WM 10. (I don't count WM 12, there was a big "what if" with the unannounced overtime.)
Sorry to hear of your loss Scott, all the best to you and yours.
ReplyDeleteso the same office that tells guys to find a way to get themselves over then tells guys to stop what is getting them over? I swear you can't win with Vince and WWE. Either you are chosen or you aren't. I don't buy the good employee argument. Plenty of good employees that spent 10 years with the company doing nothing
ReplyDeleteand a lot of people took issue with that win too. Why let HHH win if he was just going to lose to UT at WM? Why job the guy who was going to win the belt at WM? IF and it is a big IF, you buy that the Austin paranoia hell angle/turn was that well-thought out, then jobbing him to HHH to build on his fears of "not having it" anymore was sheer genius. But again I'm not sure how much of that was really planned and how much of that was people projecting storyline on the heel turn.
ReplyDeleteHHH was the rare heel I hated and cheered for because the guy was putting on great matches with everyone on the roster. His war with Austin in 2000-01 is amazing as well.
ReplyDeleteRight. That "not having it" story seems to be a retroactive creation of us to justify the turn.
ReplyDeleteZiggler doesn't and didn't get himself over through being a whiny jackoff on Twitter.
ReplyDeleteTake note - Barrett's injuries were caused by Undertaker being thrown or threw someone over the top rope and hitting his arm, this new injury is Jack Swagger recklessly hurling him into the barricades. It's not Barrett bumping improperly by but others injuring him.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like there's someone backstage who has it out for him clique style. Ziggler's shit seems all self-inflicted.
ReplyDeleteSorry about the loss Scott.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of theme music, I like Zigglers current theme way more than his last one. It infuriated me that he didn't get the WHC back from Del Rio after his concussion.
Ironically it was Barrett trying to protect Dolph during a reckless bump that got him hurt last time.
ReplyDeleteThey blew any chance of making Barrett into a big new star when he couldn't beat Cena. The Nexus angle was hot, but pairing him with Cena was death. It's as if they thought just by pairing him with Cena was some sort of mega rub, but he HAD to get the better of him.
ReplyDeleteSeriously? Because a pure rookie did not beat the top guy of the past decade, he has zero chance to get over? That's a pretty ridiculous statement. He was nowhere near ready.
ReplyDeleteI fear we may be saying the same about Wyatt in two years.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what that last sentence means, but wrestling is not a meritocracy and never has been. You have to know that going in.
ReplyDeleteIf management says "hey, cut this out" and you don't, you're gonna get screwed with, especially if you don't contribute anything that they can't get from someone who does take direction. Common sense.
ReplyDeleteYep. No sympathy for anyone who defies direct requests/orders simply because they think they don't have to follow them.
ReplyDeleteYep, there's a huge difference between playing the character of an anti-authority rebel, and actually being one. Lots of people don't seem to understand this. (cue people using cemented top guys standing up to vince as an example, which has zero to do with Dolph)
ReplyDelete