This was submitted by fellow BoD'er Justice Gray. Lets go back to 1994 WCW when Dusty Rhodes tells his son, Dustin, that the view never changes. An incredible promo from Dusty.
Even if Brock is a loss it's probably worth it to keep him because being unable to pay for top talent makes you look small time and decreases the perception of your product. See: Action, Total Nonstop.
The Triple H series was RIDICULOUS. Summerslam was fine, with the submission win, that was all we needed to prove. HHH getting the Wrestlemania win was most egregious.
They should have had something different for Brock at Mania 29. Brock vs. Rock and give the Rock vs. Cena thing a night off maybe.
Interesting one. They would have had to have turned Bryan heel for that but I'm sure the crowd would have gotten behind him again afterwards, especially if you had Taker give him respect and have Bryan save Taker from the Shield or something.
$15 Million for a guy who had wrestled SEVEN matches in 2 years. All I see/hear is: "We are really, really out of ideas, and just throwing money and darts at the wall right now".
Think about it. THEY PAID A GUY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to end the most marketable wrestling streak in history.
Why turn him heel? Face vs face. It would have actually fit Bryan's gimmick at the time. They lose the tag titles, Bryan is tired of being thought of as the weak leak so he vows to do what no one has, break the streak.
You can't take tell me Kane doing a run in for his partner and choke slamming Taker for a near fall wouldn't have blown the roof off the place.
This. I've said it before, but it bears repeating - I cannot believe that HHH thought this was something people would want to see on three separate PPVs. It was bad enough having them face off in a single match, let alone a fucking series.
Even on paper, Brock/HHH is just incapable of screaming marquee attraction - even if they were both at their peak it's not a match I'd be particularly interested in seeing. Over a decade since Hunter is worth a damn in the ring and is a partially-retired, largely non-wrestler? Fucking forgetaboutit.
I think being transitioned from a loss to Cena into a program with HHH also hurt Brock's legitimacy long-term. His loss to Cena automatically made HHH a favourite to win their eventual match, and marked him out as just another big guy on the roster. Had he beaten Cena, they could've *printed* money for the rest of his tenure.
the first point is the one that I think mattered the most: Diesel got over being a cool badass who beat guys up. why change what made him popular?
(btw: I guess Steve Austin can be really glad that Diesel had his run before him. because without that flop - and the realization what went wrong - I can easily imagine McMahon stripping Austin of all what made him cool and trying to turn him into a generic smiling babyface as well)
Dusty is the greatest talker ever. Rock may have been funnier, but no one--no one--could talk you into an arena to see a specific match better than the American Dream. When I first saw this I was absolutely dreading the return of Dusty to the ring, something that had been teased for over a year with the Assassin feud, and by the end of the promo I was more interested in that Clash bout than Hogan/Flair.
I don't buy the whole "sabotage" thing. it is one of Shawn Michaels trademarks to try to "steal the show" at WrestleMania. personally I think all the bumps etc. were just him trying very hard at that.
It's been awhile since I have seen it, but it never struck me as apologist about steroids. I think it did a fine job linking steroids to other ways that people attempt to succeed in a culture of exceptionalism. You might be right that the health side was under-emphasized, but as an analysis of American cultural tensions I thought it was excellent and balanced.
As a Canadian, I feel morally obligated to like this comment, but that doesn't mean I have to like liking this comment... But I do, because Bret is a hero and so can you!
They quoted a few guys who basically ripped into anti-steroids people, and made fun of the supposed medical problems associated with roids- saying that tons of users were still alive, and that most of the deaths were related to other things. They didn't really try and discredit the guy saying most of it, either.
They DID have that one guy claiming it gave him inoperable brain disease (forget what he had), but it was rebutted by the other guy.
That was an awesome run. I remember him holding Mad Dog Vachon's artificial leg in his hand and Vince yelling on commentary: "THAT...THAT'S THE LOWEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN!". Priceless.
Ah, okay. I don't know. I guess I have never really considered health to be the main reason people hate steroids. For the most part, north americans are fine with each other doing things that are harmful to themselves. It is when those things have social effects that they get mad. Most of the critique of steroids tend to be around their impact on fair and equal competition, so I think that is the angle the documentary took. From a cultural perspective, I think he did a nice job discussing the tensions that revolve around steroid use. You are probably right, though, that the health aspect might be under-analyzed.
Lawler took ALL kinds of crazy bumps. His trademark backwards leap over the top rope was loony, and this is also a guy who got thrown off the MSC bleachers by Bill Dundee. Not to mention Jos LeDuc press-slamming him all the way from the ring, over the ENTIRE ringside area to a table against or behind the guardrail.
I obviously can't speak for the whole of the fanbase, but my friends and I sure thought Backlund was championship material. Once Vince started playing up the five-year reign, and the bitterness, and once Bob starting killing everybody dead with that finisher, we were believers. He's still one of my favorite heels ever.
Btw: they NEVER build storylines around holds anymore, and that's too bad.
They booked him like garbage before the heel turn, though. He would've needed exceptional mike skills to get over with the All-American Boy gimmick in the 90s, and Bob's strengths were never verbal.
That's what I think. I mean, he was around for Mania X through King of the Ring 94 for the relatively pointless Jerry Lawler angle, disappeared until reffing the Bret/Backlund match at Mania XI, then disappeared again until early 1996 when he became Interim President, did a few house show matches against 1-2-3 Kid, and had the stupid backlot brawl with Goldust at Mania XII, then made his WCW debut in October, where he was back to wrestling.
It's not like he had a ton of movie roles during that time that kept him from wrestlng. I mean, Piper could've easily been a killer heel during that period in WWF. So why wasn't he really interested in wrestling from March 1992 through October 1996? Anyone know?
The good thing about Hall is that he at least understands the wrestling business. If Hall had won the world title and Vince asked Hall to do the smiling babyface crap, Hall would have told him it was a bad idea and kept doing his thing.
I'm just trying to imagine kid friendly, smiling, corporate shill Steve Austin. "Listen here, son. I've heard enough of the poop coming out of your mouth as I can put up with. Anyone out there wants me to pop a cold Stacker 2 energy drink and open a can of whoop-tushie give me a heck yea!"
I always assumed about that rumour that he was just going to have that nickname, without the accompanying character. There's no way Owen could've pulled off HHH's post-main event push character. He was way too goofy in demeanour and didn't have nearly as much of an imposing look.
I didn't take him or Nash seriously as champions, although I like both of them. They were much too joking in demeanour, and while their "coolness" came much more naturally than Shawn's or HHH's, it also made them seem like a couple of juvenile second-in-commands.
To be honest, if part of that gimmick was marrying Steph, that would have been an intriguing dynamic, brother of Vince's enemy marries his daughter and gets power in his company. Of course, they're was always the word that Owen wanted nothing to do with relationship angles because he was married. Meh. Just make for a weird version of history.
remember that time when the undertaker was undefeated at WM?
ReplyDeleteEven if Brock is a loss it's probably worth it to keep him because being unable to pay for top talent makes you look small time and decreases the perception of your product. See: Action, Total Nonstop.
ReplyDeleteThe Triple H series was RIDICULOUS. Summerslam was fine, with the submission win, that was all we needed to prove. HHH getting the Wrestlemania win was most egregious.
ReplyDeleteThey should have had something different for Brock at Mania 29. Brock vs. Rock and give the Rock vs. Cena thing a night off maybe.
29 should have been Cena vs Punk and Rock vs Brock.
ReplyDeleteImpact is moving to Wednesdays.
ReplyDeleteCena vs. Punk match from Raw main events Mania and you have a way different perception.
ReplyDeleteUndertaker vs. Ryback or something maybe?
Move spurred on by the NFL or more by rumors of Smackdown! going back to Thursdays?
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan.
ReplyDeleteYES! They did nothing with Daniel Bryan at the show.
ReplyDeleteIf they went that route, WM29 could have finally been the Vince/Taker match I always thought we'd get.
ReplyDeleteThat would have worked too and do HHH vs. Bryan a year early maybe? I guess Team Hell No was in full swing by then I suppose too.
ReplyDeleteI forget not passionately hating Kane.
Interesting one. They would have had to have turned Bryan heel for that but I'm sure the crowd would have gotten behind him again afterwards, especially if you had Taker give him respect and have Bryan save Taker from the Shield or something.
ReplyDeleteIt would have been better than the totally inert booking of well....everyone leading into WM29.
ReplyDeleteWM29...so terrible. Much missed opportunity. So wow.
Must be something in my eye... god it's dry in here...
ReplyDeleteaccording to DA MELTZ, both
ReplyDelete$15 Million for a guy who had wrestled SEVEN matches in 2 years. All I see/hear is: "We are really, really out of ideas, and just throwing money and darts at the wall right now".
ReplyDeleteThink about it. THEY PAID A GUY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to end the most marketable wrestling streak in history.
random comment: i don't know if the L stands for Logan, but for some reason it's how i always read your name
ReplyDeleteso you're logan now
One of my favourites of all time.
ReplyDeletewe'll see how smart my dvr is!
ReplyDeleteremember hhh apologizing to the crowd after their match?
ReplyDeleteholding his limp arm and having this pitiful look on his face while saying, "i'm sorry, i'm sorry"
Has Brock moved any merchandise since his return?
ReplyDeletetaker vs. a returning ted dibiase for that matchup we all heard rumors about
ReplyDelete"my dad brought you into this company, and i'm gonna take you out!"
no, wwe hires people to transport the merch from town to town
ReplyDeleteWhy turn him heel? Face vs face. It would have actually fit Bryan's gimmick at the time. They lose the tag titles, Bryan is tired of being thought of as the weak leak so he vows to do what no one has, break the streak.
ReplyDeleteYou can't take tell me Kane doing a run in for his partner and choke slamming Taker for a near fall wouldn't have blown the roof off the place.
I can believe it.
ReplyDeleteWell, when TNA finally goes belly up, Tommy Dreamer and Bubba Ray can go back to WWE to ship merch like they did for ECW.
ReplyDeleteNo way he needed to wrestle HHH three times on PPV. That was a waste.
ReplyDeleteDaddy issues = Goldust
ReplyDeleteThis. I've said it before, but it bears repeating - I cannot believe that HHH thought this was something people would want to see on three separate PPVs. It was bad enough having them face off in a single match, let alone a fucking series.
ReplyDeleteEven on paper, Brock/HHH is just incapable of screaming marquee attraction - even if they were both at their peak it's not a match I'd be particularly interested in seeing. Over a decade since Hunter is worth a damn in the ring and is a partially-retired, largely non-wrestler? Fucking forgetaboutit.
I think being transitioned from a loss to Cena into a program with HHH also hurt Brock's legitimacy long-term. His loss to Cena automatically made HHH a favourite to win their eventual match, and marked him out as just another big guy on the roster. Had he beaten Cena, they could've *printed* money for the rest of his tenure.
If it was the most marketable streak in history, why did the buyrate flop the last time a WM was built around it?
ReplyDeletethe first point is the one that I think mattered the most: Diesel got over being a cool badass who beat guys up. why change what made him popular?
ReplyDelete(btw: I guess Steve Austin can be really glad that Diesel had his run before him. because without that flop - and the realization what went wrong - I can easily imagine McMahon stripping Austin of all what made him cool and trying to turn him into a generic smiling babyface as well)
Dusty is the greatest talker ever. Rock may have been funnier, but no one--no one--could talk you into an arena to see a specific match better than the American Dream. When I first saw this I was absolutely dreading the return of Dusty to the ring, something that had been teased for over a year with the Assassin feud, and by the end of the promo I was more interested in that Clash bout than Hogan/Flair.
ReplyDeleteI don't buy the whole "sabotage" thing. it is one of Shawn Michaels trademarks to try to "steal the show" at WrestleMania. personally I think all the bumps etc. were just him trying very hard at that.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but we didn't get that while he was champion, unfortunately. As we've since found out, that was a lot closer to the real Kevin Nash.
ReplyDeleteIt's been awhile since I have seen it, but it never struck me as apologist about steroids. I think it did a fine job linking steroids to other ways that people attempt to succeed in a culture of exceptionalism. You might be right that the health side was under-emphasized, but as an analysis of American cultural tensions I thought it was excellent and balanced.
ReplyDeleteAs a Canadian, I feel morally obligated to like this comment, but that doesn't mean I have to like liking this comment... But I do, because Bret is a hero and so can you!
ReplyDeleteThey quoted a few guys who basically ripped into anti-steroids people, and made fun of the supposed medical problems associated with roids- saying that tons of users were still alive, and that most of the deaths were related to other things. They didn't really try and discredit the guy saying most of it, either.
ReplyDeleteThey DID have that one guy claiming it gave him inoperable brain disease (forget what he had), but it was rebutted by the other guy.
That was an awesome run. I remember him holding Mad Dog Vachon's artificial leg in his hand and Vince yelling on commentary: "THAT...THAT'S THE LOWEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN!". Priceless.
ReplyDeleteAh, okay. I don't know. I guess I have never really considered health to be the main reason people hate steroids. For the most part, north americans are fine with each other doing things that are harmful to themselves. It is when those things have social effects that they get mad. Most of the critique of steroids tend to be around their impact on fair and equal competition, so I think that is the angle the documentary took. From a cultural perspective, I think he did a nice job discussing the tensions that revolve around steroid use. You are probably right, though, that the health aspect might be under-analyzed.
ReplyDeleteLawler took ALL kinds of crazy bumps. His trademark backwards leap over the top rope was loony, and this is also a guy who got thrown off the MSC bleachers by Bill Dundee. Not to mention Jos LeDuc press-slamming him all the way from the ring, over the ENTIRE ringside area to a table against or behind the guardrail.
ReplyDeleteLawler makes Cal Ripken look like a fucking wimp.
roddys a wildcard here
ReplyDeleteI obviously can't speak for the whole of the fanbase, but my friends and I sure thought Backlund was championship material. Once Vince started playing up the five-year reign, and the bitterness, and once Bob starting killing everybody dead with that finisher, we were believers. He's still one of my favorite heels ever.
ReplyDeleteBtw: they NEVER build storylines around holds anymore, and that's too bad.
You're lumping Hakushi in with King Mabel and Duke the Dumpster?
ReplyDeleteThey booked him like garbage before the heel turn, though. He would've needed exceptional mike skills to get over with the All-American Boy gimmick in the 90s, and Bob's strengths were never verbal.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I think. I mean, he was around for Mania X through King of the Ring 94 for the relatively pointless Jerry Lawler angle, disappeared until reffing the Bret/Backlund match at Mania XI, then disappeared again until early 1996 when he became Interim President, did a few house show matches against 1-2-3 Kid, and had the stupid backlot brawl with Goldust at Mania XII, then made his WCW debut in October, where he was back to wrestling.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like he had a ton of movie roles during that time that kept him from wrestlng. I mean, Piper could've easily been a killer heel during that period in WWF. So why wasn't he really interested in wrestling from March 1992 through October 1996? Anyone know?
The good thing about Hall is that he at least understands the wrestling
ReplyDeletebusiness. If Hall had won the world title and Vince asked Hall to do the
smiling babyface crap, Hall would have told him it was a bad idea and
kept doing his thing.
I'm just trying to imagine kid friendly, smiling, corporate shill Steve Austin. "Listen here, son. I've heard enough of the poop coming out of your mouth as I can put up with. Anyone out there wants me to pop a cold Stacker 2 energy drink and open a can of whoop-tushie give me a heck yea!"
ReplyDeleteNash had better hair /endofthread
ReplyDeleteHe was heel in WCW for a bit there, vs Buff Bagwell.
ReplyDeleteNash does it all in one motion and rotates him too much.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how blowing the finish helps Shawn, he's laying down for it anyway.
ReplyDeleteProbably like Lance Storm's- given a push in the dying days. Then becoming a minor WWE name.
ReplyDeletehip problems?
ReplyDeleteI always assumed about that rumour that he was just going to have that nickname, without the accompanying character. There's no way Owen could've pulled off HHH's post-main event push character. He was way too goofy in demeanour and didn't have nearly as much of an imposing look.
ReplyDeleteI didn't take him or Nash seriously as champions, although I like both of them. They were much too joking in demeanour, and while their "coolness" came much more naturally than Shawn's or HHH's, it also made them seem like a couple of juvenile second-in-commands.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, if part of that gimmick was marrying Steph, that would have been an intriguing dynamic, brother of Vince's enemy marries his daughter and gets power in his company. Of course, they're was always the word that Owen wanted nothing to do with relationship angles because he was married. Meh. Just make for a weird version of history.
ReplyDelete