Hi Scott,
Hope all is well. I'm sure you've got this question before but do you think we'll ever see a wrestler's union? I feel sick reading stories about guys like Marty Jannetty and his bad ankles and Kamala and his amputations/diabetes. Surely they could get SOME help if there was a union or some kind of medical help after their careers are done.
I know that for a union to happen, a guy who is indispensable to the company, like John Cena, would have to lead the charge. But I don't see that company man/doofus would ever do such a thing. I remember reading that Jesse Ventura and the Killer Bees (or one of them) were working towards it in the 80s but Hogan put the kibosh on things. At least that's what Jesse says.
I think there should be inclusion for wrestlers into the screen actor's guild. They work on television in "entertainment" so why not? Don't Hollywood stuntmen have a union? If those dudes do, surely wrestlers should as well. Of course, Vince still considers wrestlers like circus performers even though the rest of his corporation has made it to the 21st century.
What do you think?
Hope all is well. I'm sure you've got this question before but do you think we'll ever see a wrestler's union? I feel sick reading stories about guys like Marty Jannetty and his bad ankles and Kamala and his amputations/diabetes. Surely they could get SOME help if there was a union or some kind of medical help after their careers are done.
I know that for a union to happen, a guy who is indispensable to the company, like John Cena, would have to lead the charge. But I don't see that company man/doofus would ever do such a thing. I remember reading that Jesse Ventura and the Killer Bees (or one of them) were working towards it in the 80s but Hogan put the kibosh on things. At least that's what Jesse says.
I think there should be inclusion for wrestlers into the screen actor's guild. They work on television in "entertainment" so why not? Don't Hollywood stuntmen have a union? If those dudes do, surely wrestlers should as well. Of course, Vince still considers wrestlers like circus performers even though the rest of his corporation has made it to the 21st century.
What do you think?
Never gonna happen. WWE won't even admit that their contracted wrestlers are EMPLOYEES, let alone recognize a union. I would imagine that guys like Cena and Orton are members of the SAG already because of speaking roles in actual movies, but I can't see any legitimate entertainment boards like AMPAS or even the Emmys bothering with wrestling as far as enacting change from that direction, either, since it would require Vince to subject himself to regulation.
Basically, until someone is able to break the legal seal and get a court to rule that WWE's circus performers are employees, nothing will happen from any front.
Just watched Jesse Ventura's shoot with RF Video the other day and he basically said that the reason there isn't a union and Vince can get away with the independent contractor deal is because the government doesn't care. And he said it's going to take a former wrestler becoming a Senator or Congressman to call him on it. Jesse said that if he would of been one, he would have crushed him on it.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened with Raven's suit against the WWE in the end? Did they just bully him out of the way on it?
ReplyDeleteStatute of limitations expired so they had no case. It was dismissed, no bullying needed.
ReplyDeleteI think Jesse's whackado theories would stop him.
ReplyDeleteThat's a shame. If he'd got some traction on that might have forced a change
ReplyDeleteA wrestling union is never going to happen. Vince will just fire or de-push any wrestlers that want a union. The top guys would make less with a union and the wrestlers with seniority (longtime midcarders such as Billy Gunn, Funaki and Hardcore Holly) would make more. That isn't going to appeal to any main eventer, even a liberal one like Foley or Punk. The unions are more concerned about Wal-Mart anyway.
ReplyDeleteIf you think about it, though, making WWE workers employees could potentially screw Vince McMahon over big time every year around April. Vince spends months building up to, let's say, Randy Orton vs. John Cena at WrestleMania. The night of Mania, Cena says "Give me two billions dollars or I quit." and then Cena can, within his legal rights as part of an employee/employer relationship, in fact quit.
ReplyDeletewhat? they could and would still sign binding contracts.
ReplyDelete(and btw: them being "independent contractors" didn't stop certain guys - Warrior, Jarrett - from holding up Vince for money)
"and then Cena can, within his legal rights as part of an employee/employer relationship, in fact quit."
ReplyDeleteSuperman forbid!
It would take more than a Congressman I think, and I think that is the only national office Jesse is capable of winning. I agree with him though, it is going to take someone with a personal interest in the issue and someone that Vince cannot control before anything will get done... and even then he would have to find some allies in the business... I just don't see how it gets done unfortunately.
ReplyDeletehow is it different than their relationship now? a contract is a contract, union or not and someone can break said contract and face legal consequences.
ReplyDeleteIt was the only reason baseball got busted on the steroid thing. Crusty old white guys who felt the national pastime was being tarnished. And they call wrestling fans marks.
ReplyDeleteWith so few wrestlers actually employed by WWE, it simply isn't a government priority. Not that protecting labor in general has been a government priority for years, but this is even less of a priority. Unless someone sues, the IRS doesn't care. My understanding of the Raven case is that give it legal standing in Connecticut where WWE is headquartered, the wrestler would still have to be employed, basically knowing they will be fired as soon as they file the lawsuit.
ReplyDeleteAs far as healthcare, even a union wouldn't completely solve that issue. SAG can get health insurance because they have a huge membership to spread costs too that covers high risk people like stunt men or Lindsey Lohan to low risk folks. Insurance is all about spreading risk over a larger pool. Unless the WWE wrestlers could get in a larger insurance pool, union or not, the cost of healthcare would be prohibitive. After Hennig, Bret Hart, Rick Rude and others with Lloyds of London, insurance companies know the risks of insuring wrestlers and the difficulty in deciding what is a permanent disability. Premiums would be through the roof. Even adding wrestlers to the general WWE insurance plan for office staff and the like would skryocket the costs for either WWE or the employer contribution for the non-wrestler WWE employer.
Calling WWE wrestlers independent contractors is a joke, but I just don't see a union (of which normally I'm a huge supporter) as being a magic fix for healthcare.
Generally you don't enter into a contract like they do with the 'E. McDonalds can't sue you if you quit and go work at Burger King, or if Burger King tries to recruit you.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, although if they sign binding contracts that would make them contractors still - not employees.
ReplyDeleteEven in that scenario, though, Vince has the right to sue for foreseeable damages caused by Cena's actions.
ReplyDeleteI think Scott's point was not necessarily that "WWE Superstars" should be considered employees, but that Vince's use of at-will contracts enables him to have the employer/employee control over wrestlers while still enjoying the perks of contract labor.
Ken Cuccinelli, the Republicans' next rising star, recently advised people not to get social security numbers because "that's how *they* track you." Whackado theories are becoming the norm.
ReplyDeleteIf anything holds Jesse back, it's the waffling on whether or not to keep the mustache.
other sports have unions. they also have binding contracts. Even a contract such as a UAW contract with GM has rules as far as leaving. While one can quit at any time, doing so without notice and before certain milestones (such as 5 years) will result in detrimental action to your retirement and termination of healthcare benefits. If McDonalds, who has no unions, advertised the amazing burger flipping skills of John Doe on Sunday, September 12th and it could be proven that John Doe's no-showing of his shift resulted in adverse financial consequences for McDonalds, Mr. Doe could be sued.
ReplyDeletenot true. employees can sign contracts, not just contractors. I'm not sure where you got the idea that anyone who signs a contract is a contract employee not a regular employee. There are a variety of contracts. Some can be as simple as setting up an "at-will" relationship but setting standards with a no-compete clause that does not allow the employee to work for other companies in the industry for a state period of time after resignation/termination. Others can set up a agreed period of time for employment. This is often the case for high up management, but these people are STILL considered employees and not independent contractors.
ReplyDeleteIf I were a wrestler, I'd be a little bit pissed that the monkeys in the writers' rooms are probably getting better benefits than me.
ReplyDeleteNo, it was mostly a ruling on the merits: http://www.ctemploymentlawblog.com/2009/03/articles/wrestlers-slammed-by-court-in-lawsuit-against-wwe-suit-dismissed/
ReplyDeleteThe exact same thing happened with the 1964 NBA All-Star Game. It worked. Read http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/16/sports/la-sp-all-star-strike-20110217
ReplyDeleteMeh, tea party nutjobs align nicely with Jesse's reptilian spacemen from the center of the earth that came back in time from the future past nonsense. Luckily the more they all talk, the less importance they maintain.
ReplyDeleteObviously legalese is not my forte.
ReplyDeleteI'm confused. What happened to the Union that Big Show, Ken Shamrock, Mick Foley, and Test started?
ReplyDeleteSo Jesse is the RL version of the nutbag from his episode of the X-Files.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I still think that was super dumb, why the fuck should the deciders of national fucking policy waste countless...weeks? Months? On a fucking game.
ReplyDeleteThat'd be like the Supreme Court investigating Ninja Gaiden for false advertising because nobody can beat it on it's hardest difficulty.
to be fair. I am not that accustomed to the US job market and just assumed it would be similar to Europe, where in many (I guess even: most) countries, there are several forms of employment - but workers usually sign contracts with those who they work together with.
ReplyDeleteWrestling is not a sport and will not get recognized as one.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if movie stunt people have unions
ReplyDeleteWhile the union would be dead in the water, maybe something like the Hero Initiative( a charity to support older comics writers and artists who have fallen on hard times) would be feasible for guys like Kamala.
ReplyDeleteThat had a lot to do with a federal agent (who worked primarily with the IRS) having some kind of personal grudge against Barry Bonds, supposedly. I forget the whole story now but one person extremely exceeded his boundaries in investigating steroids in baseball ended up starting the whole thing, and then because it made for good news stories, the media ran with it and it turned into a whole circus.
ReplyDeleteThere's Dawn Marie's Wrestlers Rescue, and they have in fact tried to help Kamala (there was some kind of big pissing contest over one of the checks, but I don't remember much else).
ReplyDeleteYeah, but they're paid a fraction of what the wrestlers make.
ReplyDeleteThat organization does not have a good track record of keeping promises or skimming off the top.
ReplyDeleteExcept their organization has less credibility then the Komen Foundation
ReplyDeleteand that's what bugs me, he's having his cake and eating it to
ReplyDeleteThere was in interesting piece in The New Republic a while back about the prospects for unionization in UFC. Apparently, Frank Shamrock once had the SAG look at his contract and was told that he was getting raped. I can only imagine how they'd react to a WWE contract.
ReplyDeleteA wrestling union would be a bad idea. Can you imagine the likes of Bob Holly getting main event pushes based simply on his seniority in the company? Wrestlers working half-assed matches because they know they can never be fired. Pay-per-view's costing $100 each. Sounds awesome.
ReplyDeleteWe've already had a wrestling Union. It sucked. Test, Ken Shamrock, Mick Foley, and Big Show were just such a mishmash of personalities that it never had a chance.
ReplyDeleteWhy do any of us care about a Wrestling Union anyway? Maybe if it forced wrestlers to get a certified level of wrestling and promo ability it would result in something that results in a tangible betterment for viewers, but otherwise a wrestling union is a license for wrestlers to work half-assed all of the time, WCW style.
ReplyDeleteHasn't been exposed as basically a total scam?
ReplyDeleteI believe they're all SAG members.
ReplyDeleteIt could if they wanted to take it in the direction of figure skating: a technical and artistic exhibition judged on its merits.
ReplyDeleteNor is spelling.
ReplyDeleteAnd you can't build a fort with legalese!
Next time, Scott, you know where to find me.
ReplyDeleteFine. Substitute actor for athlete. Actors have their own union, SAG. Same principles still apply. Actors enter in to a contract to appear for a specific numbers of days as determined by the production schedule. If they no-show, they can get sued.
ReplyDeleteActually, the real reason a union won't work is that wrestling is a "every man for himself" business. I've heard guys on radio shows openly stating that for every guy willing to go on strike, a dozen will be jumping to take his spot. And as pointed out below, guys can use a union to justify a push even when they don't deserve it or longer title run. Let's not forget that WCW stands as a great example of what happens when you let the talent call the shots.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that for sure? Who says some of them are not making more then the lower card guys like Johnny Curtis or Brodus Clay?
ReplyDelete