Scott, just did 72 straight hours at a hospital for residency and decided to unwind by reading over the BoD and some old Keller stuff. Find that your feedback is always factually correct so had a few questions if you could post.
1) How exactly did Bret Hart return to WWE? Was he approached by Vince to add a big name to that years WM? Did Bret approach Vince looking for closure by having one last WWE run? They must have had numerous conversations about Owen, royalties, etc. in his absence, and as recently as 05 I can remember Bret still claiming he's never go back.
2) How do wrestlers PPV payouts work? Was watching an old Jericho interview where he talks about expecting a 9 figure WM 19 bonus but was given a 7 figure check. Always figured it was just a % of the net for the main eventers and a lower % for the mid card but this is a huge discrepancy of money so there can't be be a standard policy in place?
3) I HATE Sheamus. Don't find him entertaining, interesting, or great in the ring. I'm assuming he's gonna be in the main event for the foreseeable future and might be targeted by Vince as the face of the brand when Cenas done. PLEASE tell me I'm wrong!!!!!!!
Thanks for the time,
Mark
You hear that? FACTUALLY CORRECT.
1. I think Bret said they basically approached him about going into the Hall of Fame and he was feeling like he had held the grudge long enough. Seems like as we get into the HHH era, a lot of burned bridges are unburning again.
2. There’s no standard policy, it all depends on the contract. Plus PPV revenues are basically in the toilet these days compared to even 10 years ago, so most of the money for your average WWE Superstar™ comes from merchandise and extracurricular things like that. In WCW, Hulk Hogan used to get [x] dollars downside guarantee, PLUS something like 25% of the gross PPV revenue as well. So shows like Starrcade 97 would put millions of dollars in his bank account, and WCW still made millions off the deal. These days the guys are getting even more screwed because the company will cook the numbers to make the stock look better, sometimes just straight up moving money from one division to another and the wrestlers have no say in what they’re getting paid. So yeah, your Rocks and Brocks and Cenas get the biggest chunk and then everyone else just kind of waits for Wrestlemania and hopes to get residuals from videogames and DVDs.
3. I don’t think they see him as the future of the company given his age.
I could be wrong, but I don't think they can just "cook the numbers to make the stock look better." They're a public company. The SEC might have something to say about that....
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, Jericho also said something in his book about HHH making something ridiculous like four or five times what Jericho did for the Mania X-8 main event. I believe Jericho asked HHH how much he made, and when he realized how big a discrepancy there was, he went to Vince to talk about it, and Vince basically gave him some more money.
ReplyDeleteSheamus' babyface character sucks but I blame that on creative. He can absolutely bring it in the ring though. Easily the best big man they've had in ages.
ReplyDeleteSheamus falls into that same trap that pretty much every other top-heel-turned-top-babyface falls into. The crowd begins to support the heel because they're tough bad asses (remember when he would just walk into the ring and beat up whoever was in there?) And then once they're officially a face, they become smiling, joking goof.
ReplyDeleteJericho expected a 9 figure check? How many guys have gotten $100,000,000 for working WM?
ReplyDeleteHulk Hogan. He was paid a dollar for every pound Andre the Giant weighed at WM 3.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE doesn't have a future of the company
ReplyDeleteWell, for example, in one of the latest public filings they were down in a merchandise division and up in the house show division, so they moved money from house shows over to prop up the numbers. As I understand it, it's perfectly legal, but it also means guys got a smaller house show payout.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, and when it comes to Creative it's not just Sheamus, WWE just forgot how to book faces and heels properly. Imagine watching Raw with someone who just came out of a 15 year coma...
ReplyDeleteComa guy: Why are all the heels being cheered?
Me: (Sheamus/Orton/Del Rio/Cena) is a face.
Coma guy: Are you sure? They act like heels.
Me: (sigh...)
Part of the problem is they've been trying to recapture the anti-heroes of Rock and Austin forever. What they don't seem to realize is that Rock and Austin were very unique talents. Plus, they never really changed their acts when they became faces.
ReplyDeleteYeah, so long as the money is actually there, they can say whatever they want. It's when you cook the books and there isn't anything to show that there's a problem.
ReplyDeletePost of the Week
ReplyDeleteI would say Sheamus is one of the best ~275 pounders ever--in terms of ringwork. Compare him to similarly built wrestlers like Luger, Hall, Warrior, Simmons, etc...and you can see that he's a versatile worker with strong charisma and selling abilities. Just look at his 2/3 falls match with Bryan and imagine the match Sheamus could have had if he'd been challenging Flair for the NWA title in 1987.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is they never gave him a chase, he fluked into his heel title wins and instantly annhialated his way to victory with the face run. And they've never given him much of a character. He's Irish and he was a weasly heel and now he's a smiley (still somewhat weasly) face. He doesn't even get a last name. There's very little to connect with outside of his move set, which is the same complaint everyone makes about indie guys. He needs a definitive angle (like Hart/Austin or HHH/Rocky) to really get people into him, but the writers aren't so good at producing those anymore.
from what i remember, WWE was going to do a Bret Hart DVD in the same vein as the Self Destruction of Ultimate Warrior and Bret came to Vince and co-produced the Bret Hart DVD.
ReplyDeleteThat started him coming back to the fold. 05 I believe?
If they would just let Sheamus be a bad-ass Austin-style face OR a dominant brawling heel, he would be an internet darling AND a mainstream star. They just refuse to let him get over with his strengths though
ReplyDeleteI'm still of the opinion that Bret's WM26 appearance should have given the rub to someone. Bret leading a team (Hart Dynasty?) against Vince's corporate goons or something. Seeing Bret win a work fight against Vince 13 yrs after Montreal just had no appeal, IMO.
ReplyDeleteVince in Batista's corner, Hart in Cena's.
ReplyDeleteWell, maybe if there was some character consistency, people would get behind him. I mean, he doesn't even carry a lobster's head or some limes to the ring.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, though, completely agree with this post. In addition to what you were saying, I will point out that he was able to show some character depth when fight with Goldust in WWECW and tormenting "little Evan Bourne," he has shown himself capable to having an engaging character. But then the powerbomb through the ladder to Sin Cara happened at MitB. He was turned face a week or two later, and was turned into Cena 2.0 a couple months after that.
Then Bret would've been booed. No thank you.
ReplyDeleteBret would have insured he wouldn't have been boo'd. And I don't remember the crowd at 26 being too hostile towards Cena even without him.
ReplyDeleteI thought that was odd also... maybe he was counting the change as figures?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sheamus' ring work being good . I really wish he would have been the beneficiary of Brock Lesnar run. I'm still hopeful Brock will be holding the title at Summerslam and he can actually make it important again.
ReplyDeleteThe only way Brock is getting the title is if they put it on him at Rumble to have him job it away at WM, like they did with the Rock last year.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like the only way to get a really tough, hard-edged face character is to be kind of a sociopath in real life like Orton. In real life, Sheamus seems like an easygoing, friendly guy, so WWE figures they can just translate that to the screen so he can basically 'play himself' for charity events.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, it's hard to write likable face characters when you're actually a jerk (Vince, HHH) in real life. Pretty unfortunate that the template for all WWE faces now is based on Triple H's face character, one of the least-likable personas of all time.
Yeah, he did have kind of a bully thing going for him; of course now everyone in the WWE needs to "be a star." I think he's got a good personality and he's a capable face, but the WWE seems to insist on maintaining the most generic template possible for him. It would have been cool if they'd initially tailored his gimmick as a reference to The Departed or Boondock Saints, similar to how the Razor Ramon character emerged from a Scarface reference.
ReplyDeleteAnd I can't say enough how much I hate the mono-name for him. Irish families are proud and identify by their surnames. He should be able to say stuff like, "An O'Shaunessy has never walked away from a drink or a fight." (to use his FCW name) The lone first name strips away what should be a crucial aspect of his character. How weird would it have been if Finlay had simply been 'Fit'?
You're probably right with Sheamus but man, his cheesy smiley persona in the ring seems REALLY fake.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Bret's appearance in the Nexus Summerslam match was a lot better. A quick segment that let him do some of his signature moves and boom, he was out.
ReplyDeleteThey should have never split up the Hart Dynasty and instead, made them cocky heels like Edge and Christian (who weren't really over as faces, either).
Yup. He was on a tear leading up to the Daniel Bryan match, having good performances with a bunch of different guys. But then he became Grinny O'Grinface.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds right. Although I think Vince threatened Bret with an Ultimate Warrior-esque DVD and Bret came around since he's very protective of his legacy.
ReplyDeleteHe does have a last name, Lipschitz.
ReplyDeleteCrappy angles aside, Sheamus is an incredibly talented wrestler who has plenty of charisma. He's not even a bad mic worker, it's just that as a foreigner, he has such a disconnect from the American zeitgeist he's completely reliant on the writers for coming up with a babyface character and Dunn is fucking him on that.
I also heard that was Vince's plan.
ReplyDeleteManipulating Bret by threatening to make the DVD.
What does that say about Jericho (another terrible babyface)?
ReplyDeleteSheamus isn't a bad mic worker, but he should honestly stop cutting promos.
ReplyDeleteLet him get beat up, sell, then come back.
Hide weaknesses, showcase talent.
In FCW, he was going by Sheamus O'Shannahan. Jesus, can that be any more stereotypical or what?
ReplyDeleteStÃofán Ó Fearghaile is his Irish name, I think he should go by that.
ReplyDeleteSurprised WWE took away his last name, he was wrestling with the o'shaunessy name in IWW, the S.O.S abbreviation seems like a better thing to stick on mercy then just Sheamus.
ReplyDeleteHis face turn wasn't even built up or explained -- he just stepped up to face huge monster Mark Henry and became face by proxy. Next thing you know he was telling lame jokes.
ReplyDeletePre taped short promos. WWE need to realise not everyone is an Austin, Rock, Foley that can carry a 15 minute talking segment, even Triple-H and Jericho start to tread water when left in the ring that long. But then they gave the Mix a chat show segment so maybe they're just deranged.
ReplyDeleteThey should have him and Barrett as an angle of long-time rivals from Britain to the U.S. These guys have known each other a long time and don't need scipted promos to talk about the other. Give them the WHT and let them go at it.
ReplyDelete"Find that your feedback is always factually correct "
ReplyDeleteNow you see the kind of horrors that 72 hours without sleep can impart on the human brain.
I still want them to bring Delirious up as his cousin, being the Crash to Sheamus's Bob Holly.
ReplyDeleteI drives me crazy that he doesn't have a last name.
ReplyDeleteThe thought of Lilian Garcia butchering that makes me laugh.
ReplyDeleteStone Cold Steve!
ReplyDeleteMacho Man Randy!
Ric!
Rick the Dragon!
Chris!
I think they're on autopilot until Triple H can conceive and raise a son.
ReplyDeleteThat was what I was hoping was going to happen. But wish WWE in one hand, WWE shits in the other.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Sheamus and Punk could have the kind of feud that would launch him to that next level. Play both as tweeners who simply want to beat each other.
ReplyDeleteI know they want Sheamus as a top guy, but a tag team run with Barrett as a partner would be badass. Two brawlers who can actually wrestle would make for an awesome APA style tweener team (managed by Regal or Finlay?)
ReplyDeleteTotally. Theey could have played up the HHH-Sheamus "mentor" relationship and, after beating HHH clean, Brock comes up against the rising young brawler who avenges Hunter
ReplyDeleteHe's a good worker, no doubt about it. He's got a solid moveset, three or four finishers that look great and that he can do to anyone, and he rarely if ever fucks up in a match. That being said, I agree that he needs to act like more of a badass in promos.
ReplyDelete"Mid-way through production I called a friend working on the DVD. He confided in me that all of the wrestlers I worked with confided in the camera that I was their favorite opponent, and many of the younger wrestlers confided that I was their idol. Vince, however, had finished an interview where he referred to me as 'one of the greatest of all time'. One of? It was turning into a slander piece. I realized then and there I would have to step in to prevent Vince from destroying my legacy."
ReplyDeleteJericho expected $10,000,000+ for his match at WM 19?
ReplyDeleteI noticed that straight aways. I can only say that by 'nine figures' he meant $1,000,000.00+ but instead received $10,000.00+.
ReplyDeleteDidn't Jerry Lawyer or someone similiar have this whole idea that 'one name' wrestlers weren't successful?
ReplyDeleteWell 9 figures could mean 1,000,000.00.
ReplyDeleteI think he meant WM18, in his book he talks about his payoff being well short of what he expected it to be.
ReplyDeleteIf they do that it'll be with Generico, he already looks like Shrunken Sheamus.
ReplyDeleteNow this is a Sheamus.
ReplyDeleteS.O.S? I knew it wasn't Berkowitz.
ReplyDeleteDamnit, that's who I meant, I got my masked wrestlers mixed up.
ReplyDeleteI just imagined Sheamus trying to explain that Delirious's insane blathering was, in fact, a thick Irish accent.
ReplyDeleteAnd then he didn't work a main event for the rest of his tenure. That might not be an exaggeration.
ReplyDeleteI usually hate when you do this now but this really made me laugh.
ReplyDeleteEspecially, "One of? It was turning into a slander piece."
Surely that's what he meant... but by default that means he only received no more than $9,999.99 for main eventing Wrestlemania? Ugh.
ReplyDeleteThat is just five figures, so he could have earned $99,999.99. Not great but nothing to sneeze at.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure "terrible" is the word I'd use to describe Jericho as a babyface. He's clearly and distinctly a better heel, but he can also succeed as a babyface. The problem is when he's forced to be a white meat babyface, but that's a problem for a lot of people.
ReplyDeleteI also remember that and IIRC, the original title was "Screwed! The Bret Hart Story" or something similar.
ReplyDeleteS.O.S??? I HEARD DEM SHOUTINNNN
ReplyDeleteI've always wanted him and Finlay to have an Ivan/Nikita Koloff - type group.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I goofed. I was thinking six figures for some reason.
ReplyDeleteYep. Like Henry the 8th.
ReplyDeleteNot great?! That's for what, 30 minutes work?
ReplyDeleteEven Hogan couldn't cut 15 minute promos.
ReplyDeleteFor all our educated and intelligent discussions, I am starting to fear for some of us not knowing the differences between 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in terms of dollars/figures. It's almost as bad as "irregardless."
ReplyDeletestop making sense!
ReplyDeleteWell hell, that means he's still getting paid because Andre's weight goes up every time he tells the story.
ReplyDeleteI like him better as a face. His heel work seems more "important" but it seems like a waste of his natural charisma to have him be silent and devilish.
ReplyDeleteif Mania payoffs are getting into the 9 figures ranges i'd think i'd want to skip the money and go directly into getting paid in small Carribean islands.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree - that was where I lost it as well, but I always comment on these things so I thought I'd be silent.
ReplyDeleteScott, if you're reading, can you post a "best of" thread with all of scream's comments? These are hysterical!
You don't remember all those wankfest interviews where Eric Bishcoff smiled like a jackass holding the mic for him. Easy E had an erection the whole time.
ReplyDeleteHis heel run in WCW was awesome and his early/mid 00's WWE heel work was also highly entertaining. I didn't dig his return a couple of years ago when he wasn't speaking and had the feud with CM Punk, but I think the majority of his heel work has been really good.
ReplyDeleteI think Y2J Jericho was pretty awful as a babyface.
ReplyDeleteI don't mind white meat babyfaces, I think Kofi is fine as the Steamboat successor (though I guess he's a dark meat babyface...) I don't dig constantly snarky douchebag babyfaces.
It's one thing if a face cracks jokes or makes fun of his opponent, but they should be able to turn that off and get serious.
Faces should portray positive qualities, and joker is not a positive quality in my humble opinion.
That's exactly my point.
ReplyDeleteVery few people can cut the 15 minute promo. And even they shouldn't cut 15 minute promos every week.
Keep them short, 2-3 minutes, 5 if you're head to head. Get across your character and your motivation for whatever you're doing and finish before you lose them.
Plus, I could buy those two as a legit tag team. I could buy them taking the tag belts off of the Shield in six months.
ReplyDeleteSheamus O' Fear isn't that bad of a name.
ReplyDeleteI think he was talking about pesos
ReplyDeleteHe's Stephen Farelly. Pretty normal name all things considered.
ReplyDeleteBut the money wouldn't ACTUALLY be there. It's not as if these governing bodies say "your company made 1 million dollars. Everything adds up to a million, right?" Public companies are carefully audited. If the records show that X amount of tickets were sold for Y amount of dollars, or that X amount of t-shirts were sold for Y amount of dollars, and THOSE numbers don't add up, that would be an issue.
ReplyDeleteOnly if he brings back Demolition to do it.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm not so sure about that. I work at an accounting firm (though I'm not an accountant) and I can say for sure that companies are audited under a fair amount of scrutiny. For example, inventories are done to ensure that an exact amount of items are accounted for. And invoices are checked to ensure that they match the cash receipts.
ReplyDeleteI won't pretend to be an expert (although I am curious enough about it that I do plan on asking one of the accountants I work with), but I would say that all of this work wouldn't go into their audits if they ONLY cared about the number on the bottom line.
...of cocaine.
ReplyDeleteWell, I did hear that seven ate nine.
ReplyDeleteYou are right about this. Revenues get categorized as reported. There are tax issues involved in moving stuff like that around. I think Scott got "cash influx" mixed up with revenue reporting. You can take cash from the wrestling division and injectect it into the movie division. They reflect these changes on their balance sheet. Regardless, they ultimately report revenues as a whole, but if you read the full financial statement (which I tend to do); revenues, profits and expenses are categorized properly.
ReplyDeleteGood point.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder 6 was so afraid of 7...
ReplyDeleteIf they do the Shield angle right then they might.
ReplyDeleteBut that suggests that the Triple H "character" is not capable of overcoming the odds and for the good of that character, we cannot allow that.
ReplyDeleteIt also behooves larger multimedia corporations to establish varying subsidiary and affiliate entities for the different divisions (e.g.: there may be a "wwe merchandise, llc" and "wwe live events, llc" and "wwe production, llc", all lawful, all due to different payroll, tax, labor, and revenue purposes.
ReplyDeleteWithout looking at the wwe annual report, I'd guess that is the case, with revenues not so much being "moved around", but instead different entities paying each other for certain services and to tacitly me money around. Conceptually, you could do the same with with divisions instead of entities, but the revenues are more difficult to disperse.
You're correct on all accounts.
ReplyDeleteWasn't it established that is name is Sheamus Beaker, just like his cousin?
ReplyDeleteBoth have said they want to do a match more akin to their uk matches (where Barratt wrestled a more catch style) as they know it would go down a storm
ReplyDeleteBlows my mind that they've not been given an extended run to do this as really think it would be the making of both of them
I assumed that nobody would care, so long as what you say you earned, you earned, at least as a whole. I figure if they took money from merch, put it over to PPVs, then they'd bump their merch number down a bit, so everything adds up.
ReplyDeleteOne of the best ways to move money around is to take your profit and buy back shares of you're company. The company I work for has done it and our stock has gone up $10 this year.
ReplyDeleteThat's going to make people already invested in your company happy and allows you to pretend that what you are doing is actually having a measurable positive trend.
It isn't true, but the stock market isn't built on reality.
Man, in Flair's book when he describes getting paid in Japan with a spitoon full of blow, I got half a stack. Even if I didn't wanna do all that coke, that'd be a ridiculous amount of money if you cut it and sold it.
ReplyDeleteMark Henry the 8th?
ReplyDeleteYou could probably get away with that if you're a private company. But things are looked at with a lot of scrutiny if you're a public company.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what the drug of choice now is...probably pills of some variety.
ReplyDeleteEddie Kingston promo before High Noon is a great example, Foleys cane Dewey promo is under 8 minutes.
ReplyDeletehttp://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=SDX_2-etXeM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DSDX_2-etXeM
ReplyDeleteThis is still what pops into my head when I think of sheamus :)
I don't think we need to list every single great short promo, but here's another one. The Summer of Punk Pipe Bomb promo? It was 5 or so minutes.
ReplyDeleteLong promos can be good. But in my opinion, wrestlers usually don't need that much time, so most of the promo becomes filler and they start rambling to fill space.
The crowd will only give you so much time before you lose them.
"Mark Henry the 8th I am...SOMEBODY GON GET THEY ASS WHIPPED!"
ReplyDeleteThe night Lesnar broke Triple H's arm after Hunter spent twenty minutes talking to jonny aces about contracts was one of the most counter productive uses of talky time I've seen in the last few years.snar
ReplyDeletelesnar beats Cena to death and that's how they followed it?
ReplyDeleteUgh.
ReplyDeleteI think that wrestling contract angles can work. But keep it SIMPLE! Nobody actually cares real logistical stuff. But shit like "Wrestler X can't touch Wrestler Y" or "Wrestler X won't get a title match until Wrestler Y loses the belt" can totally work.
Use the contract for the story, not the story for the contract.
Brotha just had a brainurysm, thats all.
ReplyDeleteThey had a real good match on the first Main Event. Im sure doing a series and involving some stipulation matches in there would provide some very good results.
ReplyDeleteProbably one of my top 3 dream matches these days is Sheamus vs early 90's Vader. Imagine the marks on Sheamus' body after they go in there and stiff the hell out of eachother and get a ****+ match out of it.
ReplyDelete