I know people are still talking about Total Divas and the weird straddling of the kayfabe line and what it all means, but I think a better example of kayfabbing weirdness is Pawn Stars right now. Ever since they've started doing the wacky skits between segments, it's getting harder to take the show seriously as anything but totally scripted entertainment, even though they're still kind of trying to maintain the illusion that they're not. For instance, the last two episodes featured a storyline with Chumlee being forced to walk around with a sandwich board advertising the store to "drum up business", even though the store has already been acknowledged as basically being a tourist destination more than an actual pawn shop at this point. Not to mention that having the #1 show on cable TV is far better advertising than some guy walking around the strip. And then the other one featured Rick and Corey selling the Steve McQueen car at an auction, and then buying a '69 Roadrunner with the store's money while they were there. This was presented as a situation where Corey would have to "work out a payment plan" or some nonsense, even though it's readily acknowledged that even Chumlee is basically a multi-millionaire who is set for life at this point and they could probably buy and sell all the cars at that auction with their pocket change.
I dunno, I guess it just goes to show that wrestling is as unique with their problems of "telling stories" as we'd like to think sometimes.
I think you'd be surprised how much of all reality TV is like this - see also: Catch, Deadliest, and a few others. The cool thing about Pawn Stars is that the history is real, the items are real, the cars are real, and the personalities are real. Thus, even though the stupid story-line stuff occurs in between the actual meat of the show, namely the business aspect, remains strong and entertaining.ReplyDelete
I strongly, strongly, recommend the book they all 'wrote' http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/rick-harrison-pawn-shop-reality-tv-star-read/story?id=13753425
I've just come to expect that everything in that show involving Chumlee is just scripted nonsense.ReplyDelete
Oh yeah, I LOVED that book. Loved, loved, loved it. I use Rick's "history of pimping" story in there CONSTANTLY when I need a cool bit of go-to trivia.ReplyDelete
I used to watch it like crazy, but I think I just got tired of customers (or "customers") coming in with shit and not getting the concept of pawning.ReplyDelete
"I have this bottle cap I found in my attic, how about four thousand?!"
".....You know I gotta sell this shit, right?"
It's great. I gotta say, of all things pro-wrestling has done for me, turning me on to autobiographical non-fiction is probably it's greatest contribution to my life.ReplyDelete
A lot of those people probably come in fully expecting to not sell and just get on TVReplyDelete
I first went there during the first season and saw the Old man and Rick actually there. Now they even acknowledge that they don't even work there anymore due to everyone would want to take pictures of them and pawn with only them. Lines are constantly out the door.ReplyDelete
I used to watch it all the time. This season is definitely different. The number of deals made per episode is now down to like 3 and the storylines have just gotten even more stupid. It is insulting my intelligence stupid.
They got rid of their gun and signature guys for no reason and make everyone assume that they are friends whom they have known for years with the new guys.
I also hate the new intro
I work for EZ Pawn. People really do try to sell stupid shit, such as burned movies and tools that are so rusted as to be useless.ReplyDelete
You can also visit rick's restorations and count's kustoms. I saw them filming a scene for american restorations. You can get a free tour of the shop. The workers still work there doing an actual job and I saw all of them there. If you want something to be restored there, wait about 18 months.ReplyDelete
At count's, a couple were surprised that we actually knew their names and wanted pictures with them. You can get a free tour of count's cars/bikes.
All of the 3 shops are within a 5 minute drive of each other.
All reality TV is scripted now, it's all completely fake. Kevin Smith recently admitted that Bryan Johnson (the big dude with the beard) almost walked off of Comic Book Men recently b/c they kept feeding him lines and setup reactions they wanted him to do and he was getting frustrated with it all. He kept getting into fights with the producers. And I'll never forget the sad difference between Gordon Ramsey's BBC Kitchen Nightmares and the american edition. The BBC show is informative, and he's witty, funny, and far more compassionate than the american show which was just him screaming all the time & people's staged reactions.ReplyDelete
I'd also like to point out that Brian Johnson gave us the movie "Vulgar" which is the worst movie ever. Ever. Ever.ReplyDelete
I like him in real life, but I hate him on the show. In fact, as much of a SMod fan as I am, I don't like the show at all. It's way too fake, esp. dealing with things that I love, i.e. comics and SMod Co.ReplyDelete
I've been reading Ben Staar's blog after each episode of MasterChef. Very useful for putting things on that show into context.ReplyDelete
The items are fine, it's the asking for above-market-value stuff I tired of. For instance, I remember an ep where a guy has three arcade cabinets, pretty niche but not of in-demand sort, and asks for about 4K. Rick or whoever's dealing with him is trying to get him to understand that he has to be able to sell it and that it's probably not gonna move for a lot of $$$, but the guy wanted thousands and thousands, just not understanding that you just don't turn in items and get 100% equal market value.ReplyDelete
Homosexual gang rape on a clown not your thing? What a bigot. Love is love you hate monger.ReplyDelete
Reality TV is in a weird place right now.ReplyDelete
The reason reality TV took over scripted TV was because it was cheaper. It was going to take off and supplant crappy sitcoms and "dramadys" anyways for that reason but the writers strike just forced everyone forward on what was going to happen to TV anyways.
The problem is that the strike over saturated the market so they had to come up with more and more twisted premises since after the original reality boom ended in 06 or so (before the strike even happened) people started to realize that reality TV just isn't that interesting outside of a few exceptions. IIRC MTV was heavily sweetening The Real World since the late 90s even if they weren't outright scripting it.
So I mean now we are where we are with reality TV being replaced by "reality" TV. They have to script it but since it's "reality" they can keep their production costs under what the average was in 2001. Pawn Stars is basically the same thing now as a minor hit sitcom from the 90s, except everyone is getting paid half rate (LOL not even half) so cable can afford it. The "writers" who are writing Pawn Stars are getting paid 1/10th of what they would have made 10 years ago since technically they don't exist. It's "reality TV" after all!
So I honestly believe that the big networks will eventually kick their reality habit but for Discovery, History, Animal Planet and other low margin cable networks? They're stuck with this for another 10 years, minimum, given how the margin on cable in general is falling. TLC and MTV weren't being stupid in selling out their network, they were just ahead of the curve.
I enjoy the history lessons some of the pieces have on Pawn Stars. It it wasn't for that stuff I wouldn't even watch it as it is pretty obvious that it is scripted. Same thing goes for American Pickers and that Toy Hunter show.ReplyDelete
Yeah, I mean personally I want the show to be "all" that sort of thing, but you need the entertainment-y stuff for the masses.ReplyDelete
This is why the Stone Cold Podcast isn't always about wrestling, for example.
Also the pawn Stars game on FB is pretty great too.
I'm just confused as to what would make someone watch Pawn Stars.ReplyDelete
I'm even more confused as to what would make anyone watch Honey Boo Boo and Duck Dynasty.ReplyDelete
Just who are those shows supposed to be targeted to?
And how do they manage to get any advertisers on board considering that most advertisers look down on hillbilly programming (that's why WCW had so much trouble getting good advertising deals and WCW programming had far less of a Southern vibe than those two shows)?
These girls at school were talking about how her brother watches wrestling and couldn't understand why people liked that "fake shit." They then proved they knew nothing about wrestling by suggesting they are all on wires etc. I just chalked it up to mis-information rather then stupidity until they moved on to how awesome last weeks Teen Mom was and other such MTV and TLC "reality shows." I've actually found a ridiculously high corelation between reality TV fans who think it's real and people who think wrestling fans are all mentally challenged and believe it's real. It's rather ironicReplyDelete
For Honey Boo Boo, it's the train wreck effect.ReplyDelete
personally you won't catch me anywhere near that shit (and you know your show is trash when PRO WRESTLING FANS point their noses up at it)
You know reading this I realized that after Have a Nice Day, I read mostly auto-biographies now too. Never thought about it until now. Thanks MickReplyDelete
Honey Boo Boo is essentially a spinoff from one of TLC's other reprehensible shows, Toddlers & Tiaras. It doesn't as much matter who it's being targeted to since 3 million people are watching. They come close to tripling TNA's "good" ratings to put that into perspective.ReplyDelete
Technically they pitch to advertisers that they aren't pandering TO rednecks but to people who want to make fun of them.
AMEN! The frequent counter burn I give to wrestling haters is asking them their favorite TV show, and they inevitably say something thats scripted, leading me to give them a condescending look and informing them that MTV is a work. Another good one is showing them the Shane McMahon belly-to-belly skull fracture, which most people buy as pretty real.ReplyDelete
If you can't figure out why a show about a family in Las Vegas buying unique and fantastical items, including old cars, guns, toys, posters, musical instruments, and gadgets from complete strangers is appealing, you probably have bigger problems in life than reality TV.ReplyDelete
I always equate this sort of thing to a good wrestling promo. If you shit all over something, and it's popular, then well, hey, you've shit all over something lots of other people enjoy and you're kind of an ass.ReplyDelete
If you don't like something, but can understand why it has an appeal, that's a completely different thing. You have to keep in mind that humans have a way of viewing EVERYTHING through their own lense. There are millions and millions and millions of people who live completely different lives - rural, poverty stricken, etc, that enjoy escapist and silly entertainment.
I think there was a story a while back about a woman who was on the show that breached her contract that the producers make everyone on that show sign. Basically it was "don't tell anyone how the show really works" type of deal...and she did anyway.ReplyDelete
Basically what it boils down to is this: deals are made beforehand, the Harrison's don't like it when a seller knows what the item is and how much it's worth, and that a good majority of the people that sell things on that show are just pulled out of the line at random and told what to say when they're on camera by the producers; it's not even their stuff.
But whatever, the show is still entertaining (not nearly as much as it used to be...I could care less about the family stuff; the Antiques Roadshow aspect of the show was always what made it entertaining, not the family members), but, yeah, it's essentially like all other "reality" shows: scripted and over-produced. I don't know how anyone would think Pawn Stars was ever a legit show. Doesn't make it any less entertaining, though.
One last thing, the history isn't always real. I think it's been reported that on numerous occasions the "experts" have been dead wrong about something being legit, but the show just goes with it because Rick's knowledge is really only in guns and cars. It's why they have gone to new "experts" -- I think they got burned by some of the old ones, and it's probably why they only ever do guns and cars now, which makes this new season really boring. I miss the crazy shit people would bring and try to sell.
What I find puzzling is that Pawn Stars was making tons of dough and was a highly rated show BEFORE they started adding so many scripted scenes. It was highly rated for the informative aspect of the stuff people were selling, not because of dumb ass Chumlee and whatever "mess" they have him create any given week. The show could've cruised on the buyer/seller/item format and still been super popular. Shit, it's all a riff on "Antiques Roadshow" anyways and that show is still going after a bunch of years.ReplyDelete
The reason the experts keep changing is because each one has to sign a contract with the show and since the stars are the Harrison's and Chumlee, they get lowballed.ReplyDelete
Add me to the list of those that hate the "storylines". The recent one of Chum getting an autograph from Prince was ridiculous.
Totally agree. It's funny that they decided to mess with a formula that was working. I think my favorite episodes (from a " Oh God they're doing this aren't they" aspect) are when they shoehorned the Subway product placement in. Made me think of WAYNE'S WORLD. That was some truly, wonderfully awful television.ReplyDelete
It's fun going back and watching those early episodes. Anyone remember in the first season when Rick Dale's brother is on trying to sell a coke machine? Now, thanks to American Restoration, we all know who Rick's brother is, but during the first season of Pawn Stars, no one knew at the time. So he goes in and tries to sell an old coke machine to Rick Harrison, pretending like they don't know each other. And now when you watch you think, "huh, I bet they just pulled that coke machine out of Rick Dale's junkyard."ReplyDelete
It's so funny that I put up with shit for YEARS about watching wrestling from people, and now those same people are watching FAKE reality shows. This isn't that new, either- The Hills would often script out scenes or re-shoot certain things that didn't "look right".ReplyDelete
I wouldn't doubt that some of the Duck Dynasty guys are putting on personas for the cameras, too.
Every single reality TV show is bullshit. Some more than others, but they are all bullshit.ReplyDelete
If you're cool with that and like them anyhow, then more power to you. But if it's a thing, then you need to stop watching reality TV because it's all bullshit.
Heh, I made the same comment 2 seconds ago. Yeah, it's annoying, especially the whole "they're on wires" stuff. I actually had INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, with GOOD GRADES, tell me that in school. "Oh, you can't see the wires on TV, but that's how they're able to fly around like that"- as if that makes ANY SENSE when they're grappling around or running out from the back.ReplyDelete
I can't stand most reality tv shows. They all suck.ReplyDelete
Reality TV skirts Writer's guild requirements by not having writers, only "producers".ReplyDelete
He seems to have so much natural wit, its hard to blame him. Clearly the show is heavily scripted but you can feel a lot of reality to their banter, even in a staged setting.ReplyDelete
what happens when people stop being polite...ReplyDelete
and start getting real?
How you can tell a reality show is scripted:ReplyDelete
--Everything is well-lit and perfectly framed.
--you can hear everything everyone says.
--No one talks over each other or steps on each other's lines.
--no one acts the way someone would if they had a bunch of cameras pointed at them and were told to act normal, i.e. totally ass-clenched and stilted.
wait wait wait wait wait...ReplyDelete
theo *didnt* have a joint in his textbook?!
'Reality TV skirts Writer's guild requirements by not having writers, only "producers"'ReplyDelete
maybe vince should give that a try
I always wonder with shows like Kitchen Nightmares or Bar Rescue whether the staff they show are the real staff. I know the places are real because apparently they are all over Yelp (and apparently almost every single one from Bar Rescue has been closed or sold and renamed, kinda leaving one to question their effectiveness at "Rescuing"). But some of the people they show on there seem insanely over the top and really "actorly" in how they deliver their lines. Maybe its just a result of a lot of takes.ReplyDelete
yeah we had a local restaurant on Restaurant Impossible and it ended up closing about a year after the makeover. The owner ditched half his changes as soon as he left and didn't take his advice about not having her 3 year year old running around annoying 90% of the customers.ReplyDelete
how can you tell a reality show is scripted?ReplyDelete
It's on TV
the chick who got fired during he infamous amys baking company ep of kitchen nightmares did a reddit q&a after the fact and backed up everything that was shownReplyDelete
some are flat out fake like Storage Wars, Dance Moms, or some of the hidden camera restaurant shows on Food TV. Some have a mix of scripted stuff like Pawn Stars and some have the characters placed in situations that they then "act" out in. It really started in the mid late 90s and MTV. While Survivor and Real World had creative editing and they casted for maximum conflict, it generally was "real" as we might think of the term. Then MTV had some show Orange something or other (the precursor to the HIlls) where all the characters magically run into each other 9 times a day. The other networks suddenly figured out is was easier to manufacture conflict like that than wait for it to happen somewhat naturally. Then even so-called competition shows like Top Chef and X-Factor went fake. Top Chef makes decisions in conjunction with the producers, which is code for "the one you hate ain't getting kicked off no matter how bad they are until the top 6." X-Factor went as far as scripting "witty" banter between Simon and the contestants. And then you get the completely fake ones like Dance moms (seriously dumbest show ever. wife watches it and it is almost a divorceable offense) where it's all scripted, all fake, all contrived situations and anyone with an IQ of 12 can figure it out.ReplyDelete
the subway product placement was bad but it really jumped the shark when Chumlee "happened" to run into Bob Dylan to get his album signed.ReplyDelete
you really think people honestly live like Duck Dynasty or Honey Boo Boo? It is a caricature. And a bad one. In fact rural folks should be offended by the stereotypes. Forgive me but I 100% don't get the appeal of those two shows or some of the other really over the top fake ones like Teen Mom or Dance Moms or the HIlls or whatever. I do get the appeal of the fake shows like Storage Wars and I get the appeal of the restaurant/bar/hair salon/etc. "rescue show even if a good deal of them are completely fake or at least extremely exaggerated.ReplyDelete
Not sure that making fun of something that is popular makes you an ass, particularly when "popular" is a relative term these days. Cosby Show used to pull in 35 million viewers when it was number one. Honey Boo Boo might pull in 3 million on its best night. Almost everything is a niche product at this point and I don't begrudge anyone for having valid reasons for not enjoying a particular niche.
I enjoy the toys on Toy Hunters but the scripting is obvious and I get a little annoyed by the guy acting like his margin is so tiny all the time. Seriously, he ain't going to a toy convention far away with hopes of making 2000 bucks off the toys he picked up along the way. i guess it is considered dramatic to some, but for me it detracts from the show and what I really get a kick out of, which is seeing lots of toys I grew up with.ReplyDelete
and by not having to use the actor's union or the tech unions. Basically reality TV is a right winger's wet dream. All non-union production that makes a ton of money.ReplyDelete
my brother in law said they charge like 20 bucks to get in the door now.ReplyDelete
"apparently almost every single one from Bar Rescue has been closed or sold"ReplyDelete
A few have. Not all.
The pawn business in Las Vegas is insanely competitive (they easily outnumber the casinos, even the dumpy ones), because a good number of people who live there have one or more addictions (gambling, drugs, etc.) and always look for a place to sell their crap. No pawn shop in Vegas (or anywhere else, really) who didn't have a huge TV contract and status as a tourist attraction would have someone like Chumlee around for more than ten minutes.ReplyDelete
They save a lot more money by avoiding AFTRA than the writers' unions. It's a rude awakening for the idiots who end up on those shows and think it will make them anything but fodder for "TMZ" or other celebutard vultures. No union = no legitimate work.ReplyDelete
Even with the highly scripted nature of the US version of Kitchen Nightmares I could tell those owners were as terrible as portrayed. Hell, the show didn't even need to do any of the usual editing tricks to show that.ReplyDelete
Exactly. The person who is doing the actual writing gets a producers credit which 15 years ago may have been a neat little feather in his cap but now people just recognize it as cheap labor. Like Comdukakis said it's the right wing capitalist's wet dream of TV. People jumping at the bit to get taken advantage of in casting AND "producing" and the higher ups keep all the profits and/or get to develop more crap reality shows.ReplyDelete
Like others have said, it's funny that the same people who put down wrestling as fake will watch the fakest of "reality" shows. Wrestling is the forefather of the "it's fake but I don't care" genre TV.ReplyDelete
The worst one I've seen is "Southie Rules". I came and went pretty fast. Stupid screwball set-up situations that made Boston people seem retarded. You've got to at least make the viewer feel like this stuff could possibly happen.
Duck Dynasty I don't have a problem with. It's well done and the guys just have a natural charisma. Especially Si. Hollywood actors would kill for that kind of screen presence.
Yeah I thought Bar Rescue had a surprisingly high success rate? I know the pirate bar went back to it's original theme after the guy left but last I read they were still in business.ReplyDelete
Scott and I were yaking about this in an earlier thread. I became a fan of PS a few years ago and I still catch new eps when I can, but it's becoming more and more difficult to suspend disbelief and enjoy the show when they have pretty much stopped giving a damn how fake they come off as now. Even from the beginning I knew the show (like most or all other reality TV) is structured or artificial to some degree, but with PS it felt more like they were picking a topic out of hat and letting the Harrisons go at it while they taped the results. Now everything they do and say is practically written word for word while I roll my eyes.ReplyDelete
What's still keeping me interested is learning various factoids of history from the products brought in (even if some of even THOSE people are hired actors). I feel like I'm getting something valuable out of being a viewer, and if that means suffering through bad sitcom with the Harrisons so be it.
Don't trust the opinions of ignorant kids who get all of their information from shitty blogs.ReplyDelete
I'm pretty sure he does and that's why guys like Michael Hayes are credited as producers, and ditto for Dusty Rhodes back in the day.ReplyDelete
I'm not sure if Cucch has reviewed it yet, but I finally broke down and bought Bob Holly's book on Kindle and it's just tremendously unpretentious and honest, a nice breezy read. Highly recommended. Ross Williams was supposed to get me a copy for review, but I feel better about putting money in his and Bob's pocket anyway.ReplyDelete
I like american pickers now. It still feels genuine and you really do learn about the stuff they find.ReplyDelete
The "producer" title came about when TBS would tack on end credits to JCP/WCW PPVs and video releases.ReplyDelete
If it's a good book, please don't let Cucchi "review" it.ReplyDelete
...except that the girl in the office is nothing more than a pretty face for television. She gets the public credit for the work done by an an entire staff.ReplyDelete
Agreed, I need to read that book again.ReplyDelete
Pawn Stars is scripted??ReplyDelete
IT'S STILL REAL TO ME, DAMNIT!!
well, my point was vince should try not having others write for the talentReplyDelete
Very true, for me, the most I get out of the show is learning about the random items (and the history behind them) that come into the store...although Rick's laugh is extremely annoying...ReplyDelete
As of the end of the second season there were something like four that were still running under their Taffer-given names, according to an article I read on Misanthropy Today. I don't know where the total is at now.ReplyDelete
Pawn Stars is scripted? OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ReplyDelete
Olivia Black is real to me.ReplyDelete
And by real I mean all-natural ;)
I believe you meant Laguna Beach, which turned into The HillsReplyDelete
If you don't like the content here, you know where the door is.ReplyDelete
No, I'm pretty sure there was a show called "Orange ..." something cause when I saw it on the digital guide i thought it was the Jack Black movie and was disappointed it wasn't.ReplyDelete
I've tried to argue this to people. It's classist minstrelsy. Just as you had white performers putting on black face, or just hiring black actors to portray stereotypes, you have producers today casting to exploit poor white Southern stereotypes. It's appalling anyone can watch something like Honey Boo Boo.ReplyDelete
Yes, a poorly-written article on a shitty blog that was exposed as bullshit within its own comments.ReplyDelete
I'd rather see a review of it from you than someone who obviously failed grade 5 English.ReplyDelete
As a toy collector/afficianado, I can tell you that Toy Hunter appears to not know a LOT of pretty common info. For instance, the most famous "L@@K rare OMG" transformer is Bumblejumper. It's the first thing you learn about when youbecome a transformer smark. Yet supposedly this dealer has never heard of it. In wrestling terms, it would be like CRZ saying he doesn't know about blading. Of course, 99 percent of the world knows/cares nothing about figures and just goes "duh i had dat!" And loves the show. The same way Joe Redneck just goes "Go gettim Orton!!!"ReplyDelete
You severely overestimate how much I care whether those bars stayed open or not. Just goin by what I read once. I still like the show. Not sure why its so fuckin personal for you. Cunt.ReplyDelete
Wow I have never heard anybody trying to say the wrestlers have wires. That is the stupidest fucking thing Ive ever heard.ReplyDelete
I like the show because I like old toys and have many but him not "knowing" Bumblejumper was a REALLY? moment, whether he really didnt know it or it was written that way.ReplyDelete
That was bullcrap that they got rid of her.ReplyDelete
From what I gather, the personalities are legit, but the situations are worked.ReplyDelete
Yes, make a bullshit claim, cite a horribly-written and inaccurate article as your evidence, then wig out when someone calls you on it. Nice mod behavior there, trash.ReplyDelete
Not that I'm defending the changes, but all shows have to change a bit. Otherwise viewers get tired of the same old formula and move on. The problem with all entertainment is that their audience wants changes, but not too much change. They just want the same, wrapped in a new package.ReplyDelete
This is especially prevalent in the American superhero comics industry. For example, readers want Robin, Nightwing, the Titans, etc. to grow up. But at the same time, they want Superman and Batman to remain the same age.
People hate the status quo, but they want the statue quo.
I think you're thinking of two separate things from the same period. There was the scripted FOX show 'The O.C.' (Orange County), and there was the MTV 'reality' show 'Laguna Beach: The Real Orange County' which ran at the same time in the mid-2000s, and was influenced by the popularity of the FOX show.ReplyDelete
And, yeah, the Jack Black movie was better than both.
"The Real World" has been manipulated with ringers since at least season three. Remember "Puck"? He was given specific instructions on how to irritate the other cast members, and was removed from the house because everyone else threatened to quit and expose the ruse.ReplyDelete
I made the mistake of leaving CMT running on my TV (don't judge me; I was watching a Ron White special) and caught about 5 minutes of Duane "Dog" Chapman's new show. Four words: So Bad, It's Awful. It's full of fevered egos, has Beth pretending to be the Jon Taffer of bail bondsmen, and isn't even trying to look legitimate. It will still lure in the gullible red-state bumpkins from the booger-eating/knuckle-dragging/cousin-fucking demographic that made "Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo" a hit, though.ReplyDelete
Rick didn't fire her. The production company said she wasn't getting any airtime anymore.ReplyDelete
you mean "Prince" and by that I DON'T mean The Artist Currently Known As.ReplyDelete
I know, but it still sucks. It's not like Pawn Stars is on Noggin or something.ReplyDelete
ITA. I mean, did they do any RESEARCH before finding out she was/is a Suicide Girl?ReplyDelete
I personally think Danielle is HAWTReplyDelete
yeah i meant laguna beachReplyDelete