So I asked and heard some fantastic feedback on great matches by "second tier" workers. Curious about some favorite matches from guys even lower; wrestlers you might enjoy but weren't known for throwing up five snowflakes.
Yokozuna
He had a cage match with Bret in 93 that made the tape trading rounds as something special, but I don't recall any other standout matches aside from maybe the Randy Savage on one RAW in 94.
Sid
The WWF title win at Survivor Series 96.
Kevin Nash (outside the obvious ones w/ Michaels, Hart and Undertaker)
He had a couple of decent matches with Razor Ramon for the IC title in 94.
Big Show
Brock carried him to a surprisingly good series of matches in 2003, around the time of the collapsing ring.
Kane
The Albert match on Smackdown remains the all-time champion for freak chemistry so we'll go with that one.
Sgt. Slaughter
Boot camp match with Patterson, baby. YouTube that shit.
Piper
Dog collar match against Valentine at Starrcade 83.
Anything involving Scott Steiner I now enjoy as a guilty pleasure.
ReplyDeleteLets try and have a Caliber free thread
ReplyDeleteFor Yoko i'd add a pretty decent match he had against 123 Kid that was on that Action Zone tape they had with the 4 star Razor/Kid vs. Shawn/Diesel match. Great big vs. little story and, much like Big Show and Daniel Bryan, its not hard to buy a small guy beating up a big guy when the big bastard sells for him.
ReplyDeleteFor Piper i'd add the Bret match at WM8. Doi.
Big Show would probably be one of the Sheamus matches from last year.
Yoko - the Casket Match against the Undertaker easily entered "so bad it's good" territory
ReplyDeleteNash - The "Kip Allen Frey best match bonus" era's Vinnie Vegas and Richard Morton vs. Van Hammer and Tom Zenk
Piper - vs. Hart. It wins on the "your shoe's untied" spot alone
Big Show (Giant) had the good match with Sting @ Slamboree 96 and a really fun match with Scotty Steiner on Nitro soon after.
ReplyDeleteBig Show had a hell of a match with Sheamus at last year's Hell in a Cell.
ReplyDeleteLawler vs Bret at Summerslam '93. The booking is what makes it great. But Lawler more than earned all the heat he had going into that match.
ReplyDeleteHe could be the new Montreal!
ReplyDeleteHes been a combo of montreal, cena heel turn, and HHH the last few days.
ReplyDeleteDid the Bret/Yoko cage match make any of the DVD releases? I seem to recall watching it but can't remember for the life of me where.
ReplyDeleteKevin Nash had some title matches with Sting in March/April 98 on Nitro that I thought were really good. But I seem to be the only one who remembers them.
I wouldn't call any of the guys on this list "2nd Tier workers." They were all legitimate main eventers who made lots of money for themselves and in order to do that you have to know how to "work". Are they technical greats? Maybe not, but I would think a "second tier guy" would be like Bob Holly or Billy Gunn or Outlaw Ron Bass or Billy Jack Haynes or something.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't this just make it not free?
ReplyDeleteTouche. I digress
ReplyDelete"Yoko - the Casket Match against the Undertaker easily entered "so bad it's good" territory"
ReplyDeleteYou have a weird definition of "good".
Show had freaky chemistry with Sheamus last year.
ReplyDeleteOn what planet is Piper a second-tier guy? He was a legitimate main eventer.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I like that casket match from a pure entertainment perspective. I don't get all the hatred about the Undertaker levitating out of the casket and such. He was getting time off for his back (IIRC), so you had to write him off in a way that fit the character and that did it. The idea of having 8 or so guys beat up the Undertaker so Yoko could win was a great way to get heel heat for him too. Yoko's facial expressions when facing the Undertaker were always hilarious and I remember they had a tag team match together on RAW in early '96 or so and Yoko was still kinda scared of the Undertaker despite them being partners.
ReplyDeleteAnd that Kip Allen Frey idea of the bonus for best match on the card was a stroke of genius. I'm not sure why other bookers don't do that.
Yoko mastered that "I'm wobbling, but haven't yet fallen down so hit me again" spot. Somewhat impressive for a guy his size, because he'd literally stand on the back of his heels sometimes in that spot.
ReplyDeleteYoko's "I'm bailing, but I'm so dazed I run myself into the ring post" spot was great for laughs too.
You have green smoke spewing from an urn, Bam Bam Bigelow rolling on top of a casket, the bizarre in-casket cam as the Undertaker delivers his ridiculous, over-the-top exit interview and Marty Jannetty rising to the ceiling on clearly-visible wires while Vince tries to play it as a deep and meaningful experience. It's hilarious!
ReplyDeleteWhat about Ahmed Johnson? The guy put on quite a few entertaining matches during his run near the top, even though many of them are tags, in 1995-1997 (Wild Card match, RAW match with Vader, International Incident six man tag, WrestleMania XII six man, Chicago street fight @ WM XIII).
ReplyDeleteBig Show and ADR's series of matches were pretty good as well. The big dude worked his ass off to get Alberto over.
ReplyDeleteYoko vs Bret from 9 is pretty underrated.
ReplyDeleteBig Show's had a few great series since his 2008 comeback. His series with Undertaker that year was very good and his feuds with Sheamus/Henry/Danielson last year were tremendous as well. Not sure how he ranks as a 'Not Great' at this point.
ReplyDeleteSgt. Slaughter?
ReplyDeleteNot great?
Alright, fuck this list.
All of these guys were main eventers.
ReplyDeleteAnd to be fair, and I like the guy, but how many all-time classics does he really have under his belt?
I think Show has improved TONS these past few years. I enjoy watching him wrestle - no irony or guilty pleasure.
ReplyDeleteHe's moving great in the ring, his offense is simple, but impressive, and he bumps in a realistic way for someone his size
I don't get how the WWE is always criticized for all of the cartoony gimmicks they used to have over the years but The Undertaker with his urn smoke, lightning summoning and all that always got a pass.
ReplyDeletedont forget the really good smackdown mach that kane had with angle that gave everyone hopes for a great match at wm x8 that were squashed by said match
ReplyDeleteI'd give credit to ADR, as well - he was AWESOME as the no-bullshit ass-kicker, and did a great job getting that character over.
ReplyDeleteOf course, within a month or two, they turned him into another Cena, cracking lame jokes and dumping things on peoples heads.
Yeah, I was a huge Ahmed mark back then and I would have loved to have seen Ahmed work long singles matches with Undertaker, Bret and HBK. Shame we never got that.
ReplyDeleteDon't you mean FACK this list? o_O
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzNKbiRdXtA A classic.
ReplyDeleteThere was a triple threat between him, Angle, and Cena (No Way Out 2004 IIRC) that was pretty darn good too.
ReplyDeleteI remember the Nash-Sting series too, but I remember it only being in the decent-good range. Still, it was probably Nash's best work in WCW as I can't remember him having any other decent match outside of the Giant at Souled Out.
ReplyDeleteA lot of those 80's guys don't have a resume full of 4 star classics. They are still legends in any event.
ReplyDeleteKane had a pretty good match against Stevie Richards at Bad Blood 2004; I really liked how they put over that Kane could basically power out of the Crossface at will, so Stevie Night Heat had to find another way to win.
ReplyDeleteHe and Kane are in the same boat to me; they're not gonna throw up ***1/2ers every night like Punk or Bryan, but those guys have pretty watchable matches more often than not and are still pretty damn athletic for their size and age.
ReplyDeleteIf you could take Big Poppa Pump with Scott's early 90's ability you would have the greatest wrestler ever.
ReplyDeleteNobody's arguing that he's not a legend, we're talking about workrate here.
ReplyDeleteMany people have mentioned Big Show, and I agree he has brought it on PPV. The issue is I'm just not interested in seeing him (or PAYING) to see him in these high profile matches.
ReplyDeleteIt´s fantastic as a whole. And works well to show non-fans aswell, as it´s easy to be drawn into!
ReplyDeleteI always really liked Big Show's match against Cena at WMXX. Not the greatest match ever, but a solid three stars I think. Good opener, and Cena was still pretty fresh at the time.
ReplyDeleteWho cares about workrate? Nobody wants to see 4 star "classics" except Christopher Daniels.
ReplyDelete/vincerusso
I still don't see why they couldn't have said he hurt his leg. Instead almost the entire heel locker room couldn't keep him down. It went from werid to stupid.
ReplyDeleteApparently he had some good matches as Moadib in the dying days of the GWF, such that the guys doing arena reports for RSPW from the Sportatorium considered him one of the company's main talents at the time.
ReplyDeleteRusso takes it to a bit of an extreme but there is a fine line between workrate and showmanship. I wouldn't call Jake Roberts a poor worker for example but for the life of me couldn't come up with a 4 star match he was in. Likewise did the nWo or even all of Nitro produce even one 4 star match. Without a good story / build / feud a 4 star match is simply masturbation.
ReplyDeleteLikewise did the nWo or even all of Nitro produce even one 4 star match.
ReplyDeleteProbably. That undercard was pretty beastly.
Give me some examples.
ReplyDeleteAwesome, I was just looking for that match recently.
ReplyDeleteI really liked the Big Show-Sheamus series actually.
ReplyDeleteHe was being booked as a zombie at the time. Zombies don't have leg injuries.
ReplyDeleteOverall people thought it was a stupid gimmick at the time. Especially with this match. But people also respect that he took a stupid gimmick and turned it into something special. He mailed the character from the start.
ReplyDeleteI remember the brief glimmer of ADR ass-kick-ery after SS 2011 where he made guys like Kofi and Rey tap out clean every week on RAW. I think they should've taken the Angle route with him and make him the heel who you hate because he backed it up in the ring by making everyone's favorite tap clean, but sadly, they made him a cowardly heel like everyone else.
ReplyDeleteJust rewatched Kane-Albert on youtube. What an awesome big man match that was. It reminded me of Taker-Batista where it just seemed like both guys were moving twice as fast as they normally do.
ReplyDeleteKane had a really good match with Angle at one point too - I think it was also on Smackdown (iirc Scott gave it 3.5 snowflakes)
Didn't Big Show have some pretty solid matches recently with Mark Henry? Those Lesnar matches are definitely his best, though. I think only Brock Lesnar is capable of making Big Show sell a beating like Mick Foley. The overhead belly-to-back suplex was ridiculous.
Piper's a weird case aanyway, because he didn't have a ton of great matches but his best matches were extremely memorable (id add the Goldust fight thing at WM12, minus all the OJ shit).
ReplyDeletePiper was a lost good worker in 1990-91. He has an MSG match with Perfect from 12/90 that's the best match I've seen from the WWF in 1990. It wasn't as "big" as Hogan/Warrior but it was a better-worked match. He had a great match with Bret at WM8 and good stuff with DiBiase, Flair, and Michaels as well. And no, it wasn't those guys "carrying" him.
ReplyDeleteI don't think any of these guys were bad workers, except for Sid, and he had charisma to spare.
ReplyDelete>Not an ADR fan, but his series with Big Show was some of Show's best work.
>Would add Yoko/Luger (SummerSlam), Yoko/Bret (WM X) and the second Yoko/Taker casket match to his list.
>Nash, for all the grief he gets, had great matches with practically every good, smaller worker of his era, from Bret Hart to Rey Mysterio. Some will say that just makes him "carryable," rather than good, but those people don't get it.
There are **** Jake matches in Mid-South. The Flair match for sure, multiple matches with Slater, and I'd say the TV title match against Terry Taylor is around that level. The Steamboat match from the Boston Garden is around there as well.
ReplyDeleteAlso he didn't have a huge array of offense, but what he did looked absolutely killer. Great finisher, great-looking legdrop and belly-to-belly suplex, and his thrust kick is one of the great cut-off spots of all-time and incidentally showed insane flexibility for such a fat tub. Even his basic strikes looked good.
ReplyDeleteSarge may have the best singles and match best tag match on American soil in the decade of the '80s. The Boot Camp Match with the Sheik and the Final Conflict against Youngblood & Steamboat.
ReplyDeletePiper: the Dog Collar Match, WM8 vs. Bret (better than Flair/Savage IMO), a match against Mr. Perfect at MSG in December of '90 that's the WWF Match of the Year...hell, the Hogan match at Starrcade was very well-worked for what it was.
Show has struck me for the past 8-10 years as a super-solid worker.
I forgot about the Steamboat matches. The Savage SNME match is great too.
ReplyDeleteThe Piper/Flair MSG match is pretty good too. 3.5+ stars.
ReplyDeleteI think he means second tier workers.
ReplyDeleteAnybody could have had a 3+ star match with Brock and Angle in 2003. I give Big Show no credit for that one.
ReplyDeleteSlaughter's match with Hogan at WM 7 is also one of the most criminally underrated WM main events of all time.
ReplyDeleteI remember when they had Ahmed win the USWA Unified title over Jerry Lawler after bodyslamming him ten times.
ReplyDeleteI'll skip my nitpick of the way Pele define worker and just say Sarge also had some good matches with Backlund. Okay anyone could have a good match with Backlund but it still counts.
ReplyDeletePeople, not Pele. I'm sure he knows good work, though.
ReplyDeleteThat first casket match is remembered for the silly ending and the eight-on-one beatdown, not the more-than-decent match that came beforehand.
ReplyDeleteTheir second casket match was excellent. UT and Yoko had great chemistry.
Slaughter's boot camp match against the Iron Sheik and his Mania match with Hogan were pretty good too.
ReplyDeletePiper vs Bret from Mania 8 was amazing.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that match with him against JBL where Ahmed does the hands-free dive is off the charts. I remember being psyched because that crappy Texas show was on the dish and I finally got to see the match that RSPW was crapping themselves over.
ReplyDeleteMost of Kevin Nash's best matches were against Bret Hart.
ReplyDeleteDo you still have said show saved somehow? Post-ESPN Global is a curiosity to me.
ReplyDeleteKane vs. Mysterio @ Summerslam 2010 is pretty damn good
ReplyDeleteSlaughter's overly xenophobic "Iraqi sympatheizer" gimmick tends to overshadow the fact that he carried Hogan to one of his best matches ever.
ReplyDeleteThe Slaughter/Patterson match Scott mentioned.....is that a Boot Camp match or an Alley Fight match? If it's the latter it's the first match on the Falls Count Anywhere DVD.
So the better idea is to show that half the heel locker room couldn't take down one guy? Then he ascends to Heaven or Valhalla or hell Michigan? There just had to be a better way to do it.
ReplyDeleteSavage actually managed an entertaining match against THE GIANT GONZALEZ one, too! I shit you not- though it was basically Savage running against him repeatedly and they kept the match short. But when can you ever call one of Gonzalez' matches decent?
ReplyDeleteGod yes. That was one of the greatest intense, story-driven matches of all time. The look on Piper's face when he was considering cheating and hitting Bret with the ring bell was AMAZING.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Jake basically never wrestled a good match from what I can see- they're all quite boring in terms of workrate, offense delivered, etc. It's a masterwork in crowd psychology, though, so if you're watching it for that, it can be great.
ReplyDeleteAbout ten years ago WWE released a "bloodiest steel cage matches" DVD, and the Ronnie Garvin matches against Flair are pretty damn good, I must say.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of which, somewhere on that DVD is Bruno Sammartino pulling a 1.2+ on the Muta Scale when Zybysko turned on him. No shit.
yeah, it was a stupid angle no matter how you look at it.
ReplyDeleteHis somoan drop was also money. Every time I watch a match of his and he hits that move, I cringe and wonder how the hell he didn't break his opponents ribs.
ReplyDeleteBrutus Beefcake wasn't always terrible. Never great either, but not terrible, pre-injury
ReplyDeleteScott Steiner was once awesome as well
ReplyDeleteThat's on The Best of 1993, I believe. I'm pretty sure it's just one big choke if it's the one I'm thinking of. Still, at least it played to Gonzalez's strengths (looking tall, choking, er, that's it).
ReplyDeleteKidman vs Juvi the night after Fall Brawl 98 springs immediately to mind, it's on the Best of Nitro set. I tried to find Scott's rating for it but came up empty.
ReplyDeleteWith Eddie, Benoit, Jericho, Mysterio, Juventud, Malenko, Ultimo, Jushin Liger and Kidman all regularly being given two segments in the first hour there's bound to be at least a dozen I'd think.
Maybe. Savage actually won the match, and Gonzalez dumped Wippleman afterwards.
ReplyDeleteYeah I their 3 PPV series last winter was way better than it should have been.
ReplyDelete