Scott,
How do you think the nWo's arrival in WWE should have gone down? It was basically over like 3 months in. Hogan-Rock was a high-point, but nothing else really came of the whole thing. Assuming the same timeline (No Way Out 2002 as a starting point), what do you think works better for the nWo in WWE?
Not bringing them in to begin with?
Here's a big what if: what if they never came in? I look at their arrival as the beginning of the end for Stone Cold - he was taking back seat to the Rock in that storyline, and was not too happy about being middle of the card at Mania against Scott Hall. A few months later (already pissed) comes the decision to book him against Lesnar on TV and he walks.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying he wouldn't have left with the Lesnar thing anyway, but he had been put on the backburner ever since they arrived.
Wasn't he the original opponent for Hogan and didn't he turn down the match?
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves me correctly Hogan didn't wanna job to him. Which makes why he was ok jobbing to the Rock interesting...
ReplyDeleteIt would have worked if they were actually presented them like wCw did in '96. No cutesy promos or being insulted by The Rock backstage.
ReplyDeleteThey should have shown up, beat people up, and taken the gold. Hogan should have won the title and jobbed to Austin or Rock or even Hunter by Summerslam. It could have worked. Like the Alliance though, Vince's ego got in the way.
I'd always heard it was mutual. Neither would lose to the other. Scott, what say you?
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing was dead on arrival...there was that Vince promo where he vowed to destroy the WWE with the nWo and then...nothing. They were never even on screen together. And I don't think Vince ever mentioned them again and the announcers never gave it much more than a passing "They're here because Mr. McMahon vowed to destroy the WWE." That one plot point was never followed up on, so really why bother?
ReplyDeleteHall, Nash, Hogan arrive.
ReplyDeleteHall and Nash turn on Hogan IMMEDIATELY and replace him with Triple H as leader.
Done.
People wanted to cheer them so they should have come in as a one last run sorta deal and sold a shitload of t-shirts to boot.
ReplyDeleteI really disagree with that answer. I personally had stopped watching wrestling just a little while after WCW went out of business. When I heard about the NWO coming back I was intrigued and started watching again for a little bit, and I know I couldn't have possibly been the only one. So, in terms of getting some of the people back who left after the monday night wars were over they must have at least been partially successful.
ReplyDeleteThey should have booked a six man at Mania. Rock/Austin/HHH vs the nWo. HHH turns on the wwe and leads the nWo.
ReplyDeleteI agree. They could have done that at Backlash 2002 as well. They ditched Hogan after the Rock match at Wrestlemania and Hulk challenged HHH at Backlash. Could have done the turn there, with HHH, Nash, Hall (and eventually Shawn) finally forming the on-screen Kliq in the form of the nWo. I think once you have HHH lose the belt eventually, the next logical direction would be the Outsiders questioning HHH's leadership, and a tease of nWo vs. DX (for Shawn's return), but Nash got hurt anyway and Hall was shitcanned soon after, so it's kind of moot.
ReplyDeleteIt sort of made sense for the returning HHH to go heel ASAP because that face run was all diminishing returns beyond the initial return pop and Rumble win. Made kayfabe sense for HHH to bring in his old buddies too.
I thought it was Austin who didn't want to work with Hogan. Then he was supposed to job to Hall which was to lead to the convoluted brand split.
ReplyDeleteAgree. Made more sense for HHH to bring them in as his back-up AGAINST the McMahons. He was still at odds with Stephanie on-screen and the nWo/DX contingent could have returned to the trouble-making roots (with Shawn & X-Pac returning to the group too).
ReplyDeleteWith Jericho vs. Angle for the title maybe? Tap into that Canada vs. U.S. 1997 vibe, since the show was in Toronto?
ReplyDeleteThe only win they got in their run was a Scott Hall win over Bradshaw at Backlash. They were treated like jobber and once Flair was the brain behind the operation, the angle was over.
ReplyDeleteThe only good thing to come out of this was the crowd turning Hogan face, bringing back the 80s persona and he somewhat helped put younger guys like Lesnar and Edge over. Plus we got the all time classic Vince face at WM 19.
ReplyDeleteugh, I really didn't need to have Hogan Hall and Nash dominating TV that long.
ReplyDeleteMeltzer reported the Hogan match was presented to Austin, but he turned it down.
ReplyDeleteThe only way the nWo could have worked was with other wrestlers joining to actually wrestle. We saw the disasters that Nash and Hall were in the ring by that point. Hell, Hogan might have been the best worker of the 3 in 2002. Adding ex-WCW wrestlers would have been the Invasion rehashed a year later and worthless. The nWo magic was gone by 2002 and its for best that it died a quick death.
ReplyDeleteBut then what happens to the ********** Angle/Kane match?!?!?!?!?!?!
ReplyDeleteIt really, really wasn't. The only ratings blip was for Hogan and Rock and the rest didn't affect business at all.
ReplyDeleteI believe that's what Meltzer and others have said, yes, that Austin and Hogan couldn't agree on a finish so they just went with Rock instead. Dunno why Hogan would job to Rock and not Austin.
ReplyDeleteHogan was without a doubt the best of the three in 2002. The match with Rock wasn't actively bad in a technical sense and was a classic in its own way, and while obviously heavily limited he really worked hard in matches with Jericho, Angle, etc.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the DX "old babyface merchandise shill" HHH and Shawn were doing in 2009 would've worked for nWo in 2002. I liked that iteration of DX for how gleefully shameless they were with it.
ReplyDeleteI remember thinking at the time that Rock made more sense than Austin, anyway. Rock's star had ascended past that of Austin's, at least in my opinion/recollection. Dunno if there's any objective metrics to truly back that up as I've drank and smoked pot for 11 years since then.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Hogan felt that there was a better chance of getting face pops from the crowd going against Rock in a past versus the present type match, as opposed to facing Austin which would have given the match an 80s versus the attitude era vibe which may have led to drastically different crowd reactions. I do feel if Hogan had faced Austin then the Toronto crowd may have kept Hogan heel as Austin's character was essentially anti-establishment and going into a feud against Hogan would make fans perceive Hogan as embodying the pre attitude era establishment of wrestling. The moment Hogan/Rock was announced, even as a fan less smarkish than I am now, I realised straight away it was a passing of the torch type of match so it made want to get behind Hogan because the reality of it felt that Hogan had come back to put over The Rock as he was the biggest star to have a cross media appeal since Hogan himself. Also Rock was scheduled to leave after that Wrestlemania to begin filming for The Scorpion King so perhaps Hogan also realised that there would be an empty main event babyface position to fill in the roster and that he could ride the nostalgia pop he would get at Wrestlemania in order to be that guy... which is precisely what happened. I just can't see how Austin versus Hogan could ever have happened at that point and play out in a way where neither man risks losing any popularity or pride.
ReplyDeleteHogan did show a renewed passion to put on good matches. It was a good last run for him.
ReplyDeleteI'm usually not for rebooking if you're taking a classic off the board, which you would be with Rock/Hogan. Not obviously a classic in a technical sense, but "Wrestlemania moment," epicness and all that.
ReplyDeleteStill, I find this scenario very interesting. You could even go with nWo taking out HHH at No Way Out, Angle getting the title match instead. (Where this leaves Angle and Jericho on the face/heel spectrum, I don't know.)
Meanwhile, HHH returns a month later after no one else will help Austin and Rock against the nWo. Boom. nWo v. the three biggest Attitude Era stars, to book what might possibly be the only acceptable six-man WM main event you could ever book.
It was really the only time I truly enjoyed watching him. I never watched as a kid, but I suspect if I was 10 years older (I'm 30) and had started watching in the mid-late 80's I would have hated Hulkamania and been an enormous fan of Savage and Piper, face or heel.
ReplyDeleteI started out as a wrestling fan semi-smarky because of the interwebs but even still, I was only 14 years old and LOVED the Wolfpac and hated Hogan's crew.
Maybe Hogan felt that there was more to gain for Rock by putting him over since Rock was younger and was probably viewed more as the future of the business where as Austin was winding down.
ReplyDeleteThe ironic thing is that of the three, it was Hogan who wound up working the most matches.
I'd never really thought about that before, but yeah, you're right: since that day, Hogan has probably worked more matches than Austin and Rock combined.
ReplyDeleteI never got that. 2002 WWE made no sense.
ReplyDelete"Last run" was 11 years ago and he's still on TV regularly. And was in matches until recently. Sigh.
ReplyDeleteI'll admit I was curious to see where they would go with it, but really, the nWo thing was long past its expiration date by that point. 2002 WWE was a desperate company looking to rebound from a big dip in momentum after late 2001.
ReplyDeleteI think people were just so sick of the nWo at that point and don't remember how bad the WcW brand was at the the time of its death. The nWo was really damaged goods at that point.
ReplyDeleteTheres not much they could have done to make a big difference. It woulda been cool for them to bring them back individually as Razor, Diesel, and The Real American for a few weeks then for them to all turn to reunite the nWo. Predictable but I think its thebrest they could done. Having Vince bring them in kinda took away some of their "outlaw coolness" IMO.
I've been saying for years (eleven, actually) that "WM18" should have been the big dream six-man tag; I even thought they should do what ATL2013 suggested and do Jericho/Angle for the title.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aspiringwwewriter.com/m2-re-bookings.html
Don't agree with Trips turning, but I see where you're coming from.
It didn't affect business because it only lasted a month, though.
ReplyDeleteI mean, sure, the "nWo" existed in name for several more months, but once Hogan left, it wasn't the same super-group it was before.
I definitely think if they had basically been "McMahon's Mafia", the hired goons that allowed Vince to run roughshod over everyone, it would have been better.
ReplyDeleteJust like Vince had "The Corporation" originally, and Bischoff had the "nWo" themselves, I thought it would have made a lot more sense. Plus, Vince/Flair was a major plot-point at the time, so the two of them having their opposing armies could have resulted in some good angles and matches (assuming more people were added to Vince's side).
Well, if you're look at the WWF pre-nWo and what it has become after...then I think Vince's poison worked!
ReplyDeletehttp://youtu.be/Bs0klRilQ8I
ReplyDeleteVince Russo books the invasion.
ReplyDeleteI think the first mistake was announcing that the nWo was debuting in the first place. Yes, they needed the buys, but I would have done the graphic marketing the same way they did with all the billboards (the Now Way Out logo with the nWo logo painted over the appropriate letters), but not mention the nWo on television at all or who the members are.
ReplyDeleteThat marketing would have had people talking, order the PPV out of interest, and then get rewarded when the nWo debuts in the main event attacking Austin.
I mostly agree with the idea that they shouldn't have been brought in...
ReplyDeleteBut Rock burying them in a promo was worth it alone, as was Austin giving them a taste of their own medicine by refusing to lay down for Hall.
I'd add this promo to the list of good things that came out of it
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fusP7T5hH8c
Ratings were down, so Vince stole a Bischoff ratings ploy and brought them back. Much like the character Vince, real Vince was desperate. The NWO was not the answer, and should have been left for dead. The NWO and ECW: two dead concepts that some fans need to completely move on from.
ReplyDeleteI'm still shocked he put Lesnar over the way he did. Lesnar wiping Hogan's blood on his chest afterward is still one of my favorite visuals.
ReplyDeleteBeing insulted by Rocky is exactly what the nWo deserved at that point in their careers.
ReplyDelete"BIG DADDY COOL, DIESEL! TOOT TOOT! TOOT!"
I know the feeling, I stopped watching after SVS 01, came back around June-ish and all of a sudden, they got the "F" out of the name, there were two separate "brands" treated as such, some guy named Bork Lazer was dominating, Hogan had gold, my corneas were being blinded by the day-glo shorts of some dork named John Cena, and on the first show I watched...ERIC BISCHOFF SHOWS UP IN WWE?!?!
ReplyDeleteI'd like to add "Cena needs to turn heel" and "WarGames" to that list.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the bad guys being on top for long periods of time with the babyfaces winning in the end never works....
ReplyDeleteMONTREAL.
ReplyDeleteI'm Canadian and even though it was our 9/11, I could do with it never being mentioned or referenced ever again.
"It was our 9/11" might be the funniest thing I've ever read on this blog.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely fucking *LOVE* this idea. Bravo.
ReplyDeleteThe thought of that "toot" sound still makes me laugh.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, it depends on the heels.
ReplyDeleteYes, my issue is clearly with the heels dominating, nothing else.
ReplyDeleteRock filmed Scorpion King after WM X-7, the previous year. He did the big hiatus after Summerslam up until February of '03. He might've been filming The Rundown at that point, but that might have been a little long in the can (it released Sept '03).
ReplyDeleteMaybe they thought it didn't really matter who faced Hogan first, since they could always do the other match later? Austin-Hogan never did happen, but I can see them thinking (at the time) maybe Wrestlemania 19 for that match? (especially after the success of Rock-Hogan)
ReplyDelete