Always thought this,
I wonder why they had Taz beat Sabu on this show? I mean, the big angle coming out of the show was that Bill Alfonso screwed Taz and joined up with Sabu and RVD. Wouldn't it have been a stronger turn if it had led to Sabu winning via chicanery rather than just doing it at the end of the match?
It's not like a loss in that fashion would have hurt Taz. It would have kept him strong but also given a new dimension to Sabu's character (He didn't believe he could get it done on his own so he instead made a deal with the devil to win)
Sabu beat Taz a few months later at Wrestlepalooza 97 anyway, so it wasn't like they had a Taz streak to protect or anything
Thoughts?
Mike
Here's the thing with Paul Heyman that everyone always overlooks when discussing his booking: He does fantastic work with the buildup, but he's shit at nailing the landing. The whole Taz-Sabu feud was built for MONTHS as babyface Sabu coming back to get his revenge on Taz and end the monster's streak, and then he just...lost. It was a really terrible way to pay off the feud, especially since Taz then got into a chase of Shane Douglas that lasted WAAAAAAY too long and was also a disappointing payoff.
But yes, your idea would definitely have been better for business, I think.
Taz was the babyface going into the match. Sabu left him hanging for a tag match then kept ducking Taz all through the buildup.
ReplyDelete"but he's shit at nailing the landing."
ReplyDeleteHaving watched all the ECW shows on 24/7 a few years ago, I disagree. The landing was Sabu's return. That was the real payoff. And it got people so hyped that they bought the first PPV...I think it was pretty good for business.
The Taz/Douglas fiasco is whole other matter....
The misstep Paul made on Taz/Douglas was insisting Shane kept the title while he was hurt. Shane loses the belt to someone, Taz crushes dude for title, Shane comes back healthy with a beef about Taz never beating him.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that the Taz-Sabu match was awful. For such a huge, hyped match on ECW's first PPV, you'd think they'd have them work on creating something memorable.
ReplyDeleteI think it would have been anti-climatic for Taz to beat someone else for the world title.
ReplyDeleteShane was using his injuries to duck Taz, so beating another guy just doesn't jive IMO
really, you thought it was awful?
ReplyDeleteI thought it was ok, it couldnt live up to the hype it was getting.
Paul wanted to keep heat on Shane, he loses all that if he loses the belt. Plus we got the FTW Title.
ReplyDeleteI would be curious to see what Paul and Jim Ross could do if they got "the keys" to a new promotion.
ReplyDeleteIt was anti-climatic when the finally had the match. Put the title on Bam Bam who had beaten both for their titles and who had history with both guys would have worked.
ReplyDeleteTaz defending his title by beating a healthy Shane Douglas means more than winning it by beating up a broken down Shane Douglas.
Awful may be a little too strong, but I thought it was a bad match. In fact, most of Barely Legal was pretty bad. The Dudleys-Eliminators match was the very definition of a spotfest with no psychology whatsoever, and the ladder match was a trainwreck.
ReplyDeleteTaz/Sabu is far from awful.
ReplyDeleteThey've been my dream team for TNA for the longest time.
ReplyDeleteDifferent strokes. I can't watch it. It bores the hell out of me.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was an awful match but it definitely had a weird feel. The crowd was just silent for most of the match which was the most striking thing I took from it. From a pure workrate perspective, I think the match was fine, it just lacked any heat which was strange considering how hot the feud/buildup was and how the ECW Arena crowd were always super vocal.
ReplyDeleteAs for the email, I agree that Sabu should have gone over via Fonzie screwjob. I always thought it was totally illogical for Bill Alfonzo to turn on Taz after the match and align with the loser. It would have made far more sense if the story was that Sabu approached Alfonzo before the match, they struck a deal and Alfonzo screwed Taz and cost him the match. It also didn't help that the crowd didn't really want to boo Sabu and after the event kept doing all the same stuff he did as a babyface.
If Sabu wins via screwjob, it makes their rematch far hotter with Taz seeking revenge.
They were even great as an announce team... they made me believe for years they had legit heat... but apparently it was just a work and they get along just fine.
ReplyDeleteThis is where ECW throwing out the rulebook is a problem. Shane could have built serious heat Honky Tonking his way out of title defenses and keeping Taz far away while he healed, forcing Taz to go through Douglas' bullshit and finally get him somewhere he can't run away.
ReplyDeleteMake sure JR has the bank account passwords.
ReplyDeletePaul Heyman came up through the Jim Crockett Promotions era, so it sort of makes sense that his booking would be all build and no payoff, since JCP was notoriously awful about giving fans actual payoffs to years of booking (Lex Luger at Bash 88), or extending the payoff to the point where it's no longer anywhere near as over as it could have been (Sting at Bash 90). Although, to be fair, JCP was really fucking good at the build.
ReplyDeleteWWF, meanwhile, was the master of paying shit off in the 80s/early 90s, although I'd argue they were just as good when it came to building up their main events. They just weren't as effective in building up midcard feuds. The builds were memorable, but I don't think those midcard feuds produced the same "I NEED TO SEE THIS" feeling that JCP midcard feuds created, between Wargames and Magnum/Tully or Magnum/Nikita, etc.
Man, now I'm in the mood to watch some 80s wrestling. Off to YouTube (Memphis Wrestling holds up today like you wouldn't believe -- or maybe you would believe. Great stuff)
The thing that messed up Taz vs. Sabu when I first watched Barely Legal: they never said why the two hated each other. I found out why later from an ECW fan, but that probably annoyed a lot of first time viewers.
ReplyDeleteThe crowd reaction to Sting winning the World title at Bash 1990 was incredible. And to be fair, he was supposed to take the belt at Wrestle War in February, but injured his knee. That was the perfect time to make the switch, coming off of the hot 1989 he had as Flair's partner and then getting booted out of the Horsemen.
ReplyDeleteOhhhh, wasn't aware of why Sting didn't take the gold earlier.
ReplyDeleteAnd that, kids, is what happens when you talk out of your ass on the internet. Thanks for the clarification.
It wouldn't surprise me if Taz refused to do the job. Sabu has always been open about the fact that he will do just about anything as long as you pay him, but Taz apparently really believed his tough guy shtick.
ReplyDeleteI tend to think that most bookers need somebody solid to bounce ideas off of and work with them. Vince Russo was good at booking the Attitude Era of the WWF but he needed Vince to reign him in or we get what he did in WCW. Paul needed help with coming up for great payoffs to fueds and to talk him out of ever putting the belt on Justin Credible.
ReplyDeleteGood email. This was one of the only ECW ppvs I bought, primarily because I was really into the Tazz/Sabu stuff. Really shitty payoff.
ReplyDeleteProblem was WCW had no credible heel challengers after he won the title. The Black Scorpion thing could have worked without the magic bullshit and shitty Flair payoff.
ReplyDeleteIt was painfully obvious Heyman had no idea what he was doing by 2000. Yeah the RVD injury was devastating but there was NO excuse to put the title on Justin Credible when guys like Mikey, Sandman, and even Corino were right there. But I also heard rumors that Paul was still pissed at Mikey and Sandman for jumping to WCW in 1999 so I guess even he can get blinded by petty crap.
ReplyDeleteThe whole show did not age well at all. I watched it a couple years ago, first time since live on PPV and it was brutal to sit through. Not as bad as Heroes of Wrestling or 605, but still bad.
ReplyDeleteMikey? Really?
ReplyDeleteYeah, he blew his knee out getting yanked off a cage, if memory serves.
ReplyDeleteI'm perfectly fine with Eliminators spotfests.
ReplyDeleteHe was a former ECW champ and had long since shed his "loser" persona. It could have worked. Sure as shit would have been better than Credible.
ReplyDeleteThe FTW belt is my favorite thing ever.
ReplyDeletePaul could kinda hit the landing. It was always sort of odd, though, like he didn't really recognize when it was time to pull the trigger and when it wasn't.
ReplyDeleteWhile Heyman's booking did tend to get elongated, he also had some bad luck with injuries. Taz(z) would've been champion much earlier had it not been for Douglas' injuries. The plan was to have RVD finally win the world title by building to a mega-match with Mike Awesome but then RVD got hurt and was out for months.
ReplyDeleteTrue enough but it still doesn't excuse putting the title on Credible. I refuse to believe he was the only option left for an ECW champ that wouldn't jump ship.
ReplyDeleteYea, i was about to go on a tirade about Sting being injured in early 90
ReplyDelete'he's shit at nailing the landing.'
ReplyDeletepitbulls vs. raven/stevie being an exception
i'd also argue that the whole sequence of raven losing to dreamer at wrestlepalooza and then tommy immediately moving on to lawler also is an exception
I was always under the impression that Credible was his ultimate "im going to get this guy over" project.
ReplyDeleteLike look who he got over as top guys.
Pubic Enema
Sandman
Dreamer
Taz
He would have been a miracle worker if he got Justin Credible over. And the whole Justin Credible project started in what 97? definitely 98. Heyman kept putting him over the whole roster and putting him with superior workers to hide him. Loads of mic time and Franny at the end to get him some heat. Still barely worker.
credible was perfectly fine in his role starting in late 97... midcarder who could put on serviceable matches with someone else who was more the focal point (tommy, jerry lynn)
ReplyDeleteYeah I was fine with Credible being a tag champ, or even a TV title holder but NOT World champ.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I didn't mind him beating Sabu either.
Keeping in mind that the build was designed to blow off at N2R 96, it's understandable that the heat would be lessened after another five months of buildup.
ReplyDeleteThe first was the exception, while the second was happenstance. It never would have happened had Raven not signed with WCW.
ReplyDeleteHeyman was more Memphis than JCP, so I'd argue he should have understood the value of the face going over. Working with Lawler and Dundee, I'm surprised his faces tended to take so long to get their comeuppance.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but I think the problem is that they wanted a real match out of the scenario. That should have been Taz's Warrior-HTM moment. You use Douglas' injuries as an excuse for whatever authority figure was in charge of the company to force Douglas to defend as Taz stalks from behind, Douglas continues to berate whomever (Gordon, Heyman, doesn't matter) before punching him out, and that's Taz's cue to spring on Douglas with the Tazzmission for the belt. Douglas was always a very average worker, while Taz was never good, and it showed in their eventual match. Taz's whole shtick was similar to Goldberg, except it involved dropping tomato cans on their head and then making them submit. Putting him in a real match with Douglas also exposed how weak he was in that area because Douglas, while not bad, wasn't capable of carrying someone like Taz without a Ricky Steamboat around to assist.
ReplyDeleteNot just in ECW, but when Heyman was booking Smackdown in 2002, the tv shows were tremendous as the main focus was on the Smackdown 6, but in the end that pretty much fizzled out without having a proper climax.
ReplyDeleteThey did this on the Greatest Feuds DVD they put out this year too.
ReplyDeleteWhich is amazing considering the story and build were both better than any of their matches (and I liked their matches).
I thought they had legit heat from 2001 up until 30 seconds ago when I read this post.
ReplyDeleteFilling out, he injured his new getting yanked off the cage at Clash of the Champions in February, after he tried to go after the Horsemen, who had just kicked him out of the group. The injury forced them to put Luger in the match with Flair, although I'm assuming RoboCop would have been there no matter what.
ReplyDeleteWhat they should have done with the Douglas/Taz situation was just create an interim World Title (they kinda did it with the FTW Title but it wasn't an interim in the sense that UFC's created interim titles), have Taz win a one night tournament crowning him the champion and keep Douglas off TV until he was fully healed and then you do the mega match. Having only watched ECW after its demise, I always thought the FTW stuff was kinda silly.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious to the difference in overhead Russo had in 1998 v. 1999 because going back and rewatching the Raw's from those two years, 1998 is the far better year. The most recent Raw on Classics on Demand (4/26/99, night after Backlash) had the first vignettes for MEAT and Beaver Cleavage and the show opened with Undertaker (who was holding Stephanie McMahon hostage after the laughably bad "WHERE TO, STEPHANIE?!") and Vince McMahon talking on the phone and Taker came off sounding so campy. '99 was still ultra successful because the WWF was so hot and having Austin and Rock on top and being booked well was going to compensate for some of the zaniness that started creeping into the midcard, but some of what made Russo's WCW tenure a total disaster could be seen by 1999.
ReplyDeleteIt seemed like 1998 still had enough longterm booking with enough of the "Crash TV" elements to freshen up the show. Things still logically progressed but took on a more adult and edgier take. I don't know if all the commercial success led to Vince giving Russo more creative freedom as 1999 went on and that's why you started to see more of Russo's bad booking tendencies come to light or if in 1998 there were other people that had more influence in the booking (like Cornette, Pritchard, Ross or someone else) that eventually lost their influence by 1999.
I didn't watch ECW until Classics on Demand started showing the TV but I was always under the impression that the feud itself remained hot until Barely Legal, just that the match itself had no heat. Watching the match, it almost felt like the crowd was just kinda sitting in awe that they were actually watching Taz vs. Sabu.
ReplyDeleteBut that's basically just speculation on my part since I have no way of knowing otherwise.
IIRC, isn't that why he was removed as head writer? Stephanie didn't like that all the focus was on TV instead of the PPV's or something along those lines. The TV was great because you had a bunch of great matches constantly being on free TV but there really was no payoff. I don't know if it's because Heyman was removed before he could give everything a payoff or if because he had none in mind. For as fun as the Smackdown 6 era was, it really didn't seem like it was going anywhere aside from having great matches just because everyone involved were capable of working.
ReplyDeleteit wasnt a work they never got along they have reconciled recently dont spread misinformation
ReplyDelete