1. When/how was it decided that Undertaker would go back to his goth gimmick?
2. Were there ever rumblings of him jumping to WCW? While he tended to be a major part for the 90s, he had so many dull feuds I'm curious if WCW pondered luring him too.
3. Was there ever anyone else in the running to portray Kane that we know of?
1. It was just a thing for Wrestlemania XX and I guess he liked doing it. It was more of an undead cowboy thing anyway, not really a "goth" gimmick at that point.
2. Nope, never.
3. Nope. We all knew it was gonna be Glen Jacobs from the moment it was teased.
Scott's complex feelings on the Undertaker always keeps me coming back.
ReplyDeleteNot sure how serious they were, but there were rumors that Undertaker wanted to quit unless he got a world title, which is why he got the title at WM13 and while Glen Jacobs was the favorite to play Kane, there were also some small rumors that the gig would go to Dan Spivey.
ReplyDeleteI remember some very strong iwc buzz al snow was being considered for Kane
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong on the 3rd one Scott ... Scott Levy (Raven) was heavily rumored to portray the role of "Cain" once Bearer started carrying on about Undertaker's long lost brother.
ReplyDeleteThis earns a rarely given upvote from me. Well done.
ReplyDeleteThat would have been awesome. The psychotic psychological promos from him would have been great. Hes also like 6 feet and probably would have been fired in 2 years but whatever.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that would have been possible. Levy signed on for WCW about five minutes after Barely Legal 97 ended, and Bearer didn't start talking about undertaker's long lost brother until May/June.
ReplyDeleteI recall hearing a rumor that Callaway tried to investigate his options with WCW, but Bischoff wasn't interested since he felt like he was nothing without the gimmick.
ReplyDeleteI remember sid vs taker always being the back up plan when shawn bailed
ReplyDeleteKane The Undertaker was always going to be Mark Calloway.
ReplyDelete4. Why did Pauk Bearer name both of his kids Kane?
He took notes from George Foreman
ReplyDeleteBy God thats gotta be Kane. Best debut ever IMO, yes better then Y2Js bc he actually did something of importance rather then cut a ten minute promo.
ReplyDeleteI have never once heard that. Plus Vince hated Raven and wouldn't have possibly pushed him in a high profile program like that, especially against someone so much bigger.
ReplyDeleteBonus question...was it known Kane was going to debut/interfere during that HITC match?
ReplyDeleteCant say I completely disagree with that.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I heard that as well. It was never anything past Undertaker asking around at one point IIRC.
ReplyDeleteNo people were legit surprised. And because the match was so good and hbk went over Kane got a lot of inital good will
ReplyDeleteHe seemed pretty over as the biker. He could've just done that as Mark Calloway.
ReplyDeleteI remember being absolutely convinced during SummerSlam 1996 that both Taker and yokozuna were heading to WCW, just based on how badly they lost to Mankind and Austin respectively. I was still a year away from any internet access, but I could already see the "Time Honored tradition" patterns when a guy was done with the company.
ReplyDeleteI was pleasantly surprised when both guys (especially Taker) were on Raw the following night.
He was over, but I think alot of that were wwe fans who were loyal to calloway. I dont know how well that gimmick gets over in wcw.
ReplyDeleteI think Kane had already started doing the gimmick/character at house shows though, so I think people knew he'd be showing up 'soon'.
ReplyDeleteIt was heavily rumored that Paul McCartney died and some impostor took his place in the Beatles. In the wrestling world, it was rumored that Jim Hellwig died and somebody else took his place as the Ultimate Warrior.
ReplyDeleteJust because something was rumored doesn't mean there's any truth to it.
There may have been a rumor going around the 'net that Raven was going to play Undertaker's brother: that doesn't mean anybody in the WWF had any plans or desire to put Raven in that role.
According to Wikipedia you are correct. Raven showed in WCW in April, and the first hint of Bearer having some 'terrible secret' about 'Taker was in May.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that Rock completely buried him and turned him into a joke in that very segment. If Cena did something like that, he'd be crucified. But I guess the Rock gets a free pass when it comes to how many people he turned into jokes during his prime years.
ReplyDeleteEven with the biker gimmick, he still had the 'Undertaker' name
ReplyDeleteRock 'burying' him wasn't that a big of a deal, because Rock did that to everyone. He could easily have recovered.
ReplyDeleteWhat killed Jericho was everyone else treating him like a joke, having some crappy matches out of the gate, accidentally pissing off Undertaker backstage, and getting saddled with Mr. Hughes.
Diesel and Razor Ramon did ok without their gimmicks.
ReplyDeleteEr, what?
ReplyDeleteRock killed everyone, and yeah, Rock got a pass because he was awesome.
ReplyDeleteHHH making him his personal whipping boy is what slowed Jericho down.
I agree that Rock should have just let Jericho "get one over on him". Rock definitely ended up looking better in that exchange.
ReplyDeleteI gotta disagree on the Rock/Cena comparison. Rocks shtick was always the same in promos...coolest guy in the room, thats kinda a dick who will make fun of anyone. Cenas a white bread dorky babyface. When he puts a legit dig at someone it REALLY stands out. When Rock did it, it doesnt really hurt that person since its part of the narrative.
I remember reading stuff on the net about how they had Kane do his gimmick at some house shows in order to test out the character before he officially debuted. At least that's what I remember. It's been over 15 years.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that for as much praise as Jericho's debut gets, Jericho admits in his book that looking back
ReplyDeletehe hates it because he acted way too goofy and comedic
in his facial expressions which basically solidified him as a joke character right from the start.
Makes sense.
ReplyDeleteWow, didn't know that. That would have been fascinating to see live.
ReplyDeleteI remember that too.
ReplyDeleteTrue. Id argue that they were never "gimmick" performers they way calloway was. I think they were better workers and better on the mic at the time they jumped then Calloway would have been also (guess Nash is debatable), which helped in their transition alot
ReplyDeleteI forget if I was subscribed to keller or meltzer at the time but one of them claimed his debut was supposed to be a promo exchange with the road dogg instead of Rock.
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHH.... HHH is once again to blame for all of the world's problems!!! This is incredible!
ReplyDeleteThen why did he hire Scott Levy back after the Johnny Polo stint?
ReplyDeleteDude, are you a HHH mark? While hes not solely responsible for everything that went wrong with Jericho (not working the wwe "style" is up there) but hes held back, buried, or just sucked the heat off of: RVD, Kane, Y2J, Goldberg, Punk, Bryan, Booker T. Im sure there are others im forgetting as well
ReplyDeleteThat one, specifically.
ReplyDeleteThat earns a rarely given downvote from me.
ReplyDeleteI think youre just upset I dont have an avatar for you to make an emoticon with.
ReplyDeleteDon't pay him any mind, he's an anti smark.
ReplyDeleteAn idiot?
ReplyDeleteI think it would've went over well, considering the audience.
ReplyDeleteYea maybe. Never thought of the big biker contingent wcw attracted
ReplyDeleteYeah basically Idiot is the genus, anti-smark the species.
ReplyDeleteWell, he didn't as per the "Who the fuck hired Johnny Polo?" comment he made when he first saw Scott Levy back on the roster.
ReplyDeleteAnd also, Raven was never pushed in a high profile program, so what Scott said wasn't wrong.
yeah I seem to recall something around then about Taker possible jumping to WCW...I also recall something about him possibly coming back in all-white.
ReplyDeleteOh don't get me started on the Goldberg thing... Of all of those HHH myths, him allegedly "burying" Goldberg is the one that makes me laugh the most. I could go on a 10 page rant about it....
ReplyDeleteThey had 4 PPV matches, 2 wins each. Both of HHH's wins were by total fluke in a multi man match, while Goldberg's 2 wins were 100% clean in 1 on 1 matches. All 4 made it crystal clear that HHH was no match for him. How in the BLUE HELL did HHH "bury" him? lol
He sucked off his heat by not putting goldberg over when the time was right, summerslam. That was when goldberg was really getting over and him taking a pedigree and sledgehammer cooled him off. When goldberg finally went over, he had cooled off and people werent as excited and care about him as much
ReplyDeleteHe didn't have the biker gimmick then. I have a feeling that was part of the reason he went to the biker gimmick and held on to it for so long.
ReplyDeleteFor 1, I thought it was Vince. Have read multiple things where Vince absolutely despised the Bikertaker gimmick. Basically the only thing that tops it with WWE retconning is Benoit.
ReplyDelete-The money is in the chase! The money is in the chase! The money is in the chase! OMG THEY DID NOT GIVE GOLDBERG THE TITLE ON HIS VERY VERY FIRST CHANCE IN A MULTI MAN MATCH! HE IS BURIED FORREEVVERRR!!!
ReplyDelete-But Umm... He won the title 100% clean the very next month, in a perfectly logical and well built chase.
-BUURRRIIEEDDD!!!!!
This earns and easily given upvote from me.
ReplyDeleteWell played sir, well played.
It was actually a couple months iirc
ReplyDeleteExhale.
ReplyDeleteI didnt say he burried Goldberg, I said he sucked the heat off him. The time to put the belt on anyone is when theyre hottest as a face, the reason babyface chases are successful is because it builds sympathy for the face so the face can go over and have a successful mmoney drawing run on top. Not every feud needs to follow this. The fans clearly showed they were ready for goldberg to go over, there was need for a chase here. Not giving it to him cooled him off.
Yeah but he was a huge star. If he'd kept even some of the mannerisms and been booked half as invincibly, he would have stayed over like gangbusters.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that he would have jumped because of the politics. He might have done ok that way, but in WWF there was really no one in his way at all, he was a well established top dog and respected by the other top dogs.
Goldberg didn't need a chase, he walked in the door as hot as he was ever going to be.
ReplyDeleteAnd he had limitations, he was best used as an unbeatable killer.
All good points. Either way it would have been interesting to see how it played out. The botched Bret Hart run makes it hard for me to give them any benefit of the doubt.
ReplyDelete***bows graciously***
ReplyDeleteYeah, true, I still wonder how they managed to screw up with him. He was one of the most over guys in the business, at his hottest point ever.
ReplyDeleteThe gave the audience blue balls in a spot where they had FINALLY accepted him. It was dumb on two fronts.
ReplyDelete1) If he was only going to work a year, they pissed away the most heat they were ever going to get for him.
2) If they had long-term plans beyond a year, he never really recovered from it and left in a very meh fashion.
If they didn't intend to do the change, they should have called an audible after he murdered everyone and the crowd went insane.
ReplyDeleteYea, ive heard the same. One of the ex writers on Kellers podcast said you werent allowed to mention the biker taker gimmick around Vince, because he hated it so much. Dont know if he proactively changed the gimmick back...
ReplyDeleteAgreed. That was the time to pull the trigger, especially if you only have him for a year.
ReplyDeleteThe HHH/Goldberg 1 on 1 match was originally set for Summerslam, it was even officially announced on Raw. Hunter got injured, and wasn't able to work a full match, so they made it a chamber match to add "smoke and mirrors" around Hunter's injury. I truly believe that the original plan was for the title change to happen at Summerslam, and I also believe that the chamber setting would have cheapened the win.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the HHH/Goldberg 4 month feud was perfectly fine booking. And Goldberg was just as over the following month when he did win the title. Again, all in your heads. You're all just trying WAY too hard to make HHH the devil, he's not even 1/10 as bad as you all make him out to be.
Explain why it cheapens the win when he destroyed Jericho, murdered Orton, and then made HBK look like a jobber, probably the kayfabe worst loss he took since he was a tag-team schlub? He murders Trips in a 5-6 spot match and that's that. Bottom line, Rock, Jericho (twice), Orton and HBK can be disposed of by Goldberg, but Trips has to be booked to outsmart him.
ReplyDeleteThey only had a year, they fucked up, they should have called an audible. Screw "properly putting him over." Properly putting him over was jobbing like a bitch there.
"getting caught by a f'n sledgehammer by a desperate guy who is fully aware that he is outmatched" equals "Jobbing like a bitch" now?? *facepalm*
ReplyDeleteThe story was clear that Goldberg was the better man but Hunter barely escaped with the title due to an extreme fluke. So they had a 1 on 1 rematch at the next PPV, where goldberg won 100% clean and got a huge pop.
Then Hunter, again aware that he has no chance against Goldberg put up a friggin $100k bounty on the guy.... Batista pillmanized his ankle... And Goldberg won 100% clean AGAIN at the Survivor Series, even with a busted ankle.
Following Month, Hunter regains the title in a triple threat match, where Kane Chokeslammed Goldberg, Orton and Batista pulled kane out of the ring and restrained him, and HHH crawled and got a totally undeserved fluke pin after Kane did all the damage.
Bottom like, if anyone looked like a bitch during this 4 month feud, it was HHH. But he never shows weakness right? He totally buried goldberg!! lol
The other newz was that Taker was supposed to do it a year earlier, but "conveniently" forgot to grow out his hair. You look at his feuds on Smackdown before they started the angle that led to the death of the Bikertaker, and it kind of holds up.
ReplyDeleteSeems like the kind of thing that would drive Vince nuts. Rock and Austin were utter flops under their Vince gimmick, so when they do the "play yourself up to 11" gimmick and make money, that's not a big deal.
But the Undertaker gimmick worked, so for him to ditch it for "Stone Cold who happens to have a motorcyle" and stay completely over had to piss him off a bit.
No, Triple H should have sucked it up and jobbed like a bitch, just like everyone else in that match, other than Nash, but he lost to Jericho so that's probably worse. Goldberg didn't job like a bitch, he got outsmarted.
ReplyDelete"The money is in the chase" is unfounded. The company's most successful periods had babyface champions.
ReplyDeleteThe guy he was arguing with was a joke character. That shouldn't have been an issue in 99, half the roster were joke characters. Jericho drinks the koolaid a bit too much. The one thing he's guilty of is maybe not studying up on the product and how the company worked, but playing his WCW character was not a mistake.
ReplyDeleteSort of. Jericho's on-and-off feud with Hunter in 2000 was probably the best thing to happen to his career up until that point, and until his feud with The Rock the next year.
ReplyDeleteTheir 2002 feud, however, is a different story. Also, it didn't help that Jericho was made to look like a wimp against just about everybody at the time, and not just HHH. His two PPV wins over Austin, for example, are great examples of a wrestler doing the job for another wrestler multiple times without really giving them any sort of rub.
The HHH/Rocky feud was a VERY successful feud which featured Rocky spending a lot of time chasing the WWF title. I believe their Backlash match got the highest B-PPV buyrate ever up until that point.
ReplyDeleteYou realize that Trips is the only guy who beat Goldberg (TV/PPV) in the WWE, right? At least in none 3 on 1 matches and such. That says alot. And he did it twice.
ReplyDelete*starts rumours that Luger was the original choice for Kane*
ReplyDeleteI agree, but I keep reading this sentence all the time on this site. Yet whenever WWE does it, they are apparently burying the face when he needs more than 1 try to win the title. It's like they say it, but don't actually believe it.
ReplyDeleteI think sticking Jericho in the middle of the card with Chyna & Hardcore Holly slowed him down more. Granted, it would have been weird to put a Cruiserweight Title Guy over top-tier guys immediately. I forget if all the other top guys were busy- they COULD have theoretically given Jericho a huge push immediately (thereby pissing off the rest of the locker room).
ReplyDeletePoint is, he was able to get over doing something that was a clear departure from the Undertaker gimmick, name change or not. The loyalty card is a good point, but I think he would've been fine.
ReplyDelete"I'm one of the biggestreddestmachineseverinthis.... GAH!"
ReplyDeleteIt's not like it was an accident that Bikertaker was over. They did everything they could to keep him over. He had a Kid Rock entrance song, rode a motorcycle to the ring, and every heel was terrified of him. Almost anyone would have been over with that.
ReplyDeleteYou're assuming WCW would have booked him as a biker, instead of calling him "Mark the Mortician" and then giving him off of TV once Vince started to sue them.
ReplyDeleteI thought Jericho got enough of the Rock in that segment that he could be perceived as not too far out of Rock's league. I was surprised and saddened to see him busted down to feuds with Road Dogg, Ken Shamrock (who I liked, but was winding up in WWF at that point), and X-Pac, but I guess they had to let him get his sea legs in the WWF.
ReplyDeleteI thought Spivey's back was busted up in 95 when he was playing Waylon Mercy and he couldn't wrestle anymore?
ReplyDeleteIf HHH was too. injured to do the match, he was too injured to be champ. If you were worried about the chamber cheapening Goldberg's moment, then drop it to one of the other people in the match and have Goldberg get the one on one victory over him later.
ReplyDeleteAt the time I thought that pairing him with Hunter was a legit move to elevate him, and I even bought (and still do in the right circumstances) that a hard fought loss to a higher level guy can be an elevation.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, it was not.
They NEVER tested the "Kane" character at a live event. He was working Memphis and the Greenwich Trax facility to work out the kinks but he was never the "Kane" character live. Meltzer reported that they were going with a mask and full body suit at the time but that was because someone saw the costume designs. I went back a few years ago to my old Newsletters (Torch and Observer) and the reader pages were just BURYING the Kane debut. They thought it was a such a goofy costume (ala Giant Gonzalez failure), that "Fake Diesel" will never draw and he even "botched the tombstone" at the end. Some were even saying 'Yeah Vince, that's a good nWo counter--Glen Jacobs playing Michael Myers." haha, it's amazing. I loved the original Kane character up to 2000. Jacobs was really great with somehow showing emotion by moving his head and neck.
ReplyDeleteWhat looks better:
ReplyDeleteGoldberg plowing through the entire Elimination Chamber, eliminating such stars as Jericho, Orton, and Shawn on the way to beating Tripe? Or Goldberg getting hit in the ass with a sledgehammer, being pinned, and looking like a choke artist?
Mind you, Triple H was injured to the point where he was only able to perform one move.
Whether or not it was intentional, I think Jericho was definitely elevated in his 2000 feud with HHH. His Last Man Standing loss to Hunter at Fully Loaded 2000 is a near-perfect example of what you describe, with Jericho being made to look very strong in defeat.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. 'Taker in his first babyface run as Bikertaker was one of the most cringeworthy, attemptedly cool characters I've ever seen.
ReplyDeleteI remember hearing that they were considering WCW's Ron Studd for Kane, but I feel like that might just be something my friends and I started saying (due to the fact that the dude was 7+ feet) and then took as a fact.
ReplyDeleteI'm not an Observer subscriber, so it's difficult for me to find 16 year old news ... This link is not what I'd call a "source" exactly, but enough to show I'm not completely delusional that there was talk.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.oowrestling.com/columns/timeline/20020215.shtml
Oh jeez, yeah the all-white thing. I think it was also rumoured he was going to be renamed "The Saviour".
ReplyDeleteAnd he's right. He needs that gimmick and all the protection that came with it. Otherwise he's just a guy
ReplyDelete