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The SmarK RAW Rant–11.04.13

The SmarK RAW Rant – 11.04.13

Live from somewhere in South Carolina.

Your hosts are Michael Cole & Jerry Lawler & JBL

CM Punk v. Luke Harper

Punk’s hot pink trunks are pretty awesome in a Randy Savage type of way. Punk and Harper slug it out to start and Harper chokes him down, but gets backdropped to the floor. Punk tries to follow with a dive, but runs into a forearm as Harper takes over. Rolling facelock is a nice bit from Harper, but Punk fights back and Harper misses a blind charge. This time Punk hits his dive and we take a break. Back with Punk fighting from behind again and hitting a tornado DDT. Punk is just amazingly great as a babyface while doing minimal stuff these days. It’s really a lost art. Punk with the running knee and he stops to hit Rowan with a dive, resulting in him running into Harper’s big boot. Lariat misses and Punk rolls him up for the clean pin at 13:14. Harper looked totally fine in there. *** The Wyatt beatdown begins in earnest, but Daniel Bryan makes the save with the chair and it’s all good stuff that nearly always works.

Meanwhile, HHH announce that Big Show is BANNED FOR LIFE last week.

Meanwhile, Paul Heyman talks to us from his HOSPITAL BED, as he’s been beaten into major spinal injury by CM Punk.

Randy Orton v. Big E Langston

As chosen by the app! The copyright notice reveals that they’ve managed to cut the first hour down to 20 minutes on Hulu, which might be a new record for them. Big E powers Orton out of the ring and slugs away while the announcers are putting him over like crazy. He’s kind of a weird one in that he’s clearly someone they have big plans for, but they’ve no SMALL plans for him for months now. Orton comes back with a dropkick, but Big E powers out of the draping DDT and puts Orton on the floor again as we take a break. Back with E charging and hitting the floor, allowing Orton to take over. Langston quickly puts him down again and follows with the Ultimate Warrior splash for two, however. Orton gets the backbreaker for two. He sends Langston into the post and this time hits the DDT. E blocks the RKO, however, and the STRAPS ARE DOWN, but Orton reverses out of the Big Ending and RKOs him at 13:34. Because Orton, of course, does not do jobs, even to future World champions. Not that he should here, because I hate when they do that “beating the champion” booking, but it’s a huge double standard that everyone else with a belt has to lay down on RAW on a seeming weekly basis and Orton continues to be the most protected guy in the promotion. **1/2

John Cena, Cody Rhodes & Goldust v. Damien Sandow, Jack Swagger & Antonio Cesaro

I’m going to ignore Cena’s cloying pre-match speech about rising above cancer because it’ll just angry up my blood again. But COME ON, could these guys be any more self-serving? And what THE FUCKING FUCK is that combined Rhodes entrance music supposed to be? Sandow gets worked over in the babyface corner, as does Swagger. Apparently Tyson Kidd is the #1 trend on Twitter, but whatever it was couldn’t make the cut on Hulu. Cena and Cesaro get into a power match, and Cena hits a fisherman’s suplex for two. Cody comes in with a front suplex for two, and it’s over to Sandow. He gets nowhere and the heels pause for a conference while we take a break. Back with Cesaro hitting the SWISS DEATH uppercut on Cena to take over. Swaggerbomb gets two. He throws knees in the corner and goes to the facelock, which brings Cesaro in off a clothesline for two. The beatdown of Cena continues until he finally overpowers Cesaro and makes the hot tag to Goldust. He runs wild, everyone hits their finisher (including the Giant Swing on Goldust), and Goldust finishes Cesaro with his neckbreaker suplex at 21:00. Pretty dull match that literally felt like time-filler, but the finish was super-hot and they probably should have just went to that 10 minutes sooner. ***1/4

Meanwhile, we get a BORING recap of Big Show’s lawsuit against the company.

Meanwhile, Stephanie is concerned that HHH is taking this Big Show thing too personally, and wants HHH to settle RIGHT NOW.

The Bella Twins & Eva Marie v. AJ Lee, Tamina Snuka & Aksana

Really? THIS they leave in? Main point of discussion from the announcers: Tamina is the daughter of Jimmy Snuka. WHAT? Why didn’t someone ever mention this before now? They totally would have gotten her over if they had mentioned that at some point! Tamina misses the splash on Brie and the chick with the bad dye job rolls her up for the pin. What a hero. Wasn’t she a heel on the Total Divas show before? DUD

Main Event Discrimination Lawsuit Settlement:

So Big Show, with an ironclad contract and airtight lawsuit against the company that could cost HHH MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, comes out to settle in exchange for his job back. And then the Shield come out and we take a break. So Show’s final settlement offer: He wants his job back and a title shot at Survivor Series. Now, I’m no lawyer, but clearly Big Show is a fucking idiot. If he could have sued the company and gained control, he could have just given himself the title and his job back! And really, so is HHH if he thinks that defamation would be worth anything more than paying out the amount of contract that they were already paying Big Show anyway. And then this crashingly boring bullshit segment somehow leads to…

Big Show v. Randy Orton & The Shield

And the beatdown begins, but KANE THE LIBERTARIAN comes out for some reason in a sharp suit, distracting Show and allowing Orton to hit an RKO. This is apparently enough for a DQ. I don’t even understand the purpose, motivation or reason behind this Kane heel turn.

The Pulse

That last segment not only killed the entire show, but may have killed their business for the rest of the year. I have zero interest in watching Big Show v. Orton, HHH and Kane in various combinations of suck until Royal Rumble, but apparently that’s what we’re getting. And good job rushing Cena back to pop a 2.9 rating last week, which immediately evaporated again this week. I’m not feeling particularly optimistic about the company at the moment.

Comments

  1. The way things are going, its gonna feel like 2 years until the Rumble instead of 2 months.

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  2. The last hour of Raw was just painful and it culminated with the worst ending segment in forever. Does anyone give a shit about the Big Show at this point? What has this guy done over the past 15 years to earned continued main event pushes besides being big? Who in their right mind is going to pay $60 for Big Show/Orton?


    Punk and Bryan teaming against the Wyatt's is a fun, old school program, but it kills me to see Bryan shunted down the card for Big Show to take his place. Summerslam was so much fun and I kept up my optimism all the way through Hell in a Cell, but I won't be spending any money on ppv's until the Rumble.

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  3. I hope this Wyatt program gives Bryan something to do until the Royal Rumble, which, I really hope he ends up winning. Wrestlemania 10 had Bret and all the faces standing tall at the end, 20 had Eddie and that guy we can't mention. 30 ending with Bryan going over in the main event with Punk coming out to salute him seems too good to be true.

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  4. Another minor note: They hyped up a Big E v. Curtis Axel match for Main Event, complete with on-screen graphics, and this ended up not happening at all when they taped the show. Why? Because, I guess.

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  5. Any chance they put the WWE Title on the line for the Rumble? Eh? Sounds like fun. They should do it.

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  6. "Wasn’t she a heel on the Total Divas show before?"

    Since they cut most of the Divas stuff on the Hulu version, you may have missed the stuff where all the women who appear on Total Divas are faces, and the women who aren't (primarily AJ) are heels. Because AJ's jealous or something. I think when that didn't work they just decided to have AJ be crazy again.

    So somehow, despite the fact that there is nothing likeable about the Bellas and they still portray themselves as the same bitchy heels they did before, we're supposed to cheer for them.

    The Tyson Kidd thing was an awful Kidd/Natalya vs. Fandango/Summer Rae mixed tag, that basically existed to promote season 2 of Total Divas.

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  7. I know im the only one bc people like the Wyatts but I am NOT excited about a Wyatt vs Punk/Bryan program.

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  8. And your choices for the Kane return are:


    -Kane comes back for vengeance against the Wyatts.
    -Kane heel turn by being brainwashed by & joining the Wyatts.
    -Kane heel turn by being Kane The Libertarian working for Hunter & Steph.


    Let's see the results! Hmmm...oddly, the App says that 105% of the vote went to Kane The Libertarian. That's not even possible. Oh well, on with the show!

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  9. I am. It can act as a litmus test for the ability of the Wyatts, which is worth doing.

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  10. His new promo is gonna be him just him reading excerpts of Ayn Rand for 8 minutes.

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  11. And nobody will even notice the difference.

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  12. Yes Chris Benoit.

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  13. At least Kane has a reason to go after the World Title now: he wants to invest in gold!

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  14. I'm liking it so far. Why? Because here's the setup. Crazy heel attack good guys. Good guys team up to get revenge. Just a basic, straightforward pro wrestling angle. There are no lawyers, no petitions, nobody fighting the be the face of anything and nothing is in abeyance.


    Big, crazy, evil heels attack and inure good guys. Good guys fight back. It's the type of angle that worked for decades.

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  15. Glad I chose to watch a shitty Smackdown PPV from 10 years ago over this. John Cena intensely squashing Jesus in a street fight > smirking, cancer-pandering John Cena.

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  16. Fuck you, you stole that from me in the live thread.

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  17. I seriously think Kane, Evil Libertarian (I know, redundant) is going to be the greatest thing ever.

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  18. I loved the hell out of the beginning parts of this show but the main event angle is just flat. Ratings bear that out also (although you can't put too much weight in that; hour 3 usually drops these days; popular opinion is with the internet in that 3 hours of wrestling is just too much).


    My problem is how much energy they're investing in guys who don't need it. Like I get that Big Show is a better actor than Miz or Ziggler but they spent 3 months on it. The crowd will react to basically anyone with 3 months of prepping. Big E is over after 3 weeks. Cody got over with 2 good segments and being off TV for a few weeks. Maybe Miz is a lost cause but they could have at least got Dolph over in that situation.


    And same with Kane, he has an interesting loose end with the Wyatts but they bring him in to be corporate muscle. Why waste time on Kane in a main event angle. Why not wait a couple months for Sheamus to come back and give him that spot. Or figure out Barrett's visa issue and give that to him. Or disinfect McIntyre. There are options besides those guys.


    I don't know, I was optimistic about the promotion a few weeks ago but this week was super disappointing to me and it's all due to the last hour of the show.

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  19. In all seriousness, I think Kane should change his finisher to the bear hug and start calling it Atlas Hugged.

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  20. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 5, 2013 at 10:50 PM

    Whenever the promise something for Main Event, it doesn't happen, I think it's a running gag at this point.

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  21. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 5, 2013 at 10:51 PM

    Eh I did the Ayn Rand reference days ago

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  22. Or just go with a REALLY hard shoulder block and call it the Atlas Shrug.

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  23. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 5, 2013 at 10:54 PM

    I think you were actually sort of kind about that last segment. And you forgot quite possibly the worst part, Show making the "YES!" chant his.


    That was elementary school play level acting. Steph also transformed from psycho corporate witch into a pragmatist for reasons not exactly explained.

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  24. That would be unique. I don't think anyone has ever used a shoulder block (just a standard one) as a finisher. Right?

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  25. She also went back into psycho corporate at the end with her sneer at the Big Show after he was powerbombed through the table. I loved how they aired 6 of those video packages about the Big Show lawsuit, only to have Steph come in and make it all worthless in one segment.

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  26. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 5, 2013 at 10:56 PM

    Daniel Bryan will come out at the end of the show and giddily jump up and down to celebrate new Unified World Champion John Cena, AND YOU WILL LIKE IT.


    Punk will have already have flown back to Chicago after beating Libertarian Kane in the curtain jerker.

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  27. He could read Rand Paul speeches too. Doesn't even have to worry about citing them!

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  28. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 5, 2013 at 11:03 PM

    You know, if the BOD was upset about Show being mistreated, why would they be happy about 5 people beating him up after he was re-instated? Eh, whatever, I'm not writing this stuff.

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  29. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 5, 2013 at 11:05 PM

    I'm just happy the third hour dropped because literally no one else other than Orton/Show/Trips/Steph were on that hour. Anyone else worth a damn had clocked out by the end of the second hour.

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  30. Did he do a hurricanrana in the Jesus match? Because he pulled that out during the six man tag. I will never not freak out over the Cenacanrana.

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  31. Closest I can think if is Terry Taylor's Five Arm.

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  32. Your_Favourite_LoserNovember 5, 2013 at 11:35 PM

    renee young on raw was mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


    i loved how kane's tie was too short

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  33. Also, I think Ron Simmons used a top rope shoulderblock as a finisher for awhile.

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  34. I thought that six man tag was a lot of fun. Cena brought back his hurricanrana! That, and thinking for a minute that Kane was Bull from Night Court when he first showed up.

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  35. Daniel Bryan thinks that would make him unstoppable.

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  36. Your_Favourite_LoserNovember 5, 2013 at 11:40 PM

    if kane the libertarian results in 2112 or anthem being his entrance music, i'm down with that

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  37. My favorite part of the show was when Michael Cole said Tyson Kidd was the number 1 trend on Twitter, then immediately attributed it to "the power of Total Divas."

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  38. What was dull about the six-man? That match was great.

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  39. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 6, 2013 at 12:12 AM

    Oh gee, I'd love to watch next week's Raw... but I have to wash my hair.

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  40. The Wyatt Family are being funded by HHH and co. It's pretty obvious, which means it has a ten percent chance of being continuity in WWE

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  41. Damn it! Nobody say his name again. He will come back like Beetlejuice.

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  42. When Hacksaw Duggan was feeling especially lazy, he'd sometimes swap out the clothesline for a shoulder block.

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  43. Could they possibly be cutting bait with Axel?


    One could hope.

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  44. Nah I'm with you on this one. Seems like a step down for Bryan and Punk, mainly because the Wyatts have done jack shit since debuting.

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  45. If Kane goes on to spend 10 minutes a show lecturing us on the evils of the Fed, this will be the GREATEST GIMMICK MAKEOVER EVER!

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  46. He can even call people out to duel!

    this mini scandal has been gold fodder amongst my hyper liberal facebook friends and I.

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  47. it has the benefit of keeping the guys I like most out of the main event, so I can stop watching and avoid most of the stupid corporate stuff.
    I tend to watch on hulu, so I scan a recap for good matches, wait till I've seen all the good matches and anything involving my Internet Favorites duo and then I can avoid anything involving all these characters I've no interest in!

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  48. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 6, 2013 at 4:23 AM

    First of all, was that Armageddon '04? Atrocious.

    Secondly, you're correct.

    Thirdly, THAT WAS NINE YEARS AGO?

    How things (don't) change.

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  49. There's also that Pounce thingie

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  50. I liked the new look too. DB's hair had gotten kind of ridiculous. He looks way more badass with it pulled back than all over his face.

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  51. Officially lost my patience with this main event angle. To recap:

    Cena chooses Bryan as his next opponent. Vince, who runs the company again (and they never did explain why or when he got that power back after Triple H was made on-screen COO), hates the idea of Bryan being champ, but doesn't just veto the choice and say "no, pick someone else."

    Vince falls off the face of the earth and Triple H turns for no reason. You can't even argue that Vince broke Triple H off-screen because Vince is returning as a face in the second unexplained and senseless turn here.

    So Bryan wins and gets cashed in on. Let's assume that a Triple H, who would and has violated contract clauses as COO to fit his agenda, gives Bryan the standard and assumed rematch all champions get. Bryan wins, but as far as the kayfabe history books show, he won by collusion with the referee to cheat Orton out of the belt.

    That should have been it. He got his rematch, he cheated, it's over. Triple H, who thinks Bryan is worthless AND now a cheater, should have been fired, really, if you follow HHH's on-screen logic.

    Instead, he gets ANOTHER title shot. Why? Why does Triple H grant another title shot to the guy he DOESN'T THINK DESERVES ONE AND DOESN'T WANT TO BE CHAMPION?

    He orders Big Show to KO Bryan, but the referee isn't in on the scheme, so why wait until the match is 20 minutes deep to unleash the plot? Why give Bryan 20 minutes of opportunity to get Orton with a flash pin/submission?

    THEN BRYAN GETS ANOTHER TITLE SHOT FOR NO REASON.

    This time, the ref IS in on it and the entire goal is to screw Bryan, so again, WHY WAIT? Ring the bell, super kick, RKO, pin.

    Then the Big Show supposedly has the company in his hands, legally, and flushes that opportunity away for a title shot and the chance to work for the guy who hates his guts again.

    And finally, Kane, who was kidnapped by the Wyatt Family, returns and gives in to Stephanie after absolutely no pressure or convincing. Did the Wyatts kidnap him and make him watch highlight feels of the the McMahon-Helmsley Regime or some shit?

    Also, Kane with no mask and short hair is and will always be Issac Yankem and never be even slightly intimidating to me.

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  52. Big Show vs. Kane is one of the worst main event match ups WWE can present.

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  53. Jim Cornette said that the best gimmicks are using the guy's real life persona with the volume turned way up.


    I'm telling ya, this Libertarian Kane thing has got legs. There's so much syngery between this and the old Kane. Instead of shooting flames from the ringposts, he can shoot dollar bills into the air, demonstrating the evils of quantitative easing. Instead of being The Devils Favorite Demon, he can be Janet Yellen's Worst Nightmare. Instead of saying "May 19th", he can say "Wake Up Sheeple!"


    At worst, this will be the next JBL. At best, Kane joins Hogan and Austin as A+ Players.

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  54. I don't think Shawn was in on it. The story was he saw HHH was in trouble and superkicked Bryan to defend him.
    Also, The title was in abeyance and orton and bryan wrestled for it to determine which one of them was champion

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  55. Problem is, Kane and Show have each switched Heel/Face more times then the entire 2000 WCW roster combined. How can you care about characters that change motivation without cause or reason at the drop of a hat over and over again? The ratings pretty much show that nobody gives a fuck about this whole thing, seriously wheres the sense in sending Punk, Bryan and Cena (yes I hate him but Cena is their franchise) home early to make way for Big Show? A Face Big Show at that.

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  56. 2010: Nexus storm the ring, batter the main event, tear up the ring and make a huge statement = Cena whipping them like submissive whores until the whole Nexus concept disappears.

    2011: Punk cuts the legendary "Pipe-Bomb" promo defeats Cena at MITB and leaves the arena, and the company, through the crowd taking the belt with him= Cena winning another belt, an undeserving Del Rio getting his least memorable title run, Kevin Nash Vs Triple-H

    2012: Punk assaults the Rock and goes on to cement his title run as the longest in years= Punk becoming the longest ever transitional champion, rarely getting a main event, while WWE waits for the Rock to return for the rematch nobody really wanted as its result was a foregone conclusion.

    2013: Bryan is singled out by the Authority and has to overcome the odds to win the title he deserves and shut the naysayers up

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  57. That leaves 8+ points of lost logic to explain away. As much as I despise him, not even Russo was that bad... mainly because he never got to eight points of logic in the first place. Five was pushing it for him.

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  58. Butch Reed also did that a few times.

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  59. Chris Benoit.


    (Hears his music start)


    Fuck. My bad.

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  60. It's wrestling. I wouldn't care too much about logic. You know who the good guy and bad guy are!

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  61. Chris Benoit is here and he's really mad! Chris Benoit is here and he's really ann-gry!

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  62. Jesus got off pretty lightly for non-disguised attempted murder.

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  63. This time it's different.

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  64. The Bushwhackers Battering Ram was basically an assisted shoulder block.

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  65. They eat up the Mix :o

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  66. I'll TL;DR this one:


    2001-2013: WWE throws away milions, if not billions, being a sports entertainment company that still has wrestling in the marquee. Also, they

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  67. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 6:22 AM

    Now you have me curious on how they revamp his ring gear. Does he wear a suit in the ring like IRS?

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  68. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 6:24 AM

    I hate the fact that common sense and logic doesn't apply in wrestling. Also I hate the fact that wrestling is supposed to be for "kids" but they come up with the most convoluted angles with the same end game.

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  69. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 6:24 AM

    For three hours and six minutes (including over run)?

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  70. Must have Kevin Nash's hair.

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  71. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 6:26 AM

    I said this before. Punk needs to grow his hair and beard back out and they redo the Straight Edge Society gimmick to combat the corporation.
    Hippies against "the Man"

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  72. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 6:27 AM

    Ultimate Warrior beat Savage with it and ended his career.

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  73. At least with the Invasion you can see "crazy old Vince" not giving a Damon about money and wanting to give one last "Fuck you, I run this shit now!" to his rivals, but you'd think Stephanie and Triple-H would realise they need to keep the company strong?

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  74. I really don't know why they don't put him in a tag team- he'd be a perfect Matt Hardy for someone. I think someone mentioned Ryback elsewhere and they're a perfect duo- Ryback has a defined personality, is strong enough on the mike and some nice high spots but is shit in the ring, Axel's perfectly acceptable to good in the ring but has a fairly boring moveset and is blander than white rice.

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  75. You can get away with one or two lost points... but eventually people will throw up their hands, say "Fuck this company", and give up.


    Hell, they might be testing that theory with this angle... how much shit can we pile on people before they walk away?

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  76. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 6:30 AM

    He does like to let that conditioner sit for awhile.

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  77. I dont follow the Libertarian party, but its amusing the only two Libertarians I know are Kane and Ron Swanson. Guess Ron Paul in 08 ish.

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  78. Gun Control:
    Yes, there is a lot of evdience to show that less available guns means less gun deaths. It's common sense as well: less guns means less shootings!
    Also, definitely less accidental shootings. People in the uk, for example, don;t feel the need to have a gun to 'protect themselves'

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  79. I don't know if the "streak" was nearing diminishing returns, but Goldberg certainly wasn't. His merchandise was way up at arena shows, his quarter hour ratings were great (he has several matches among WCW's best quarter hour ratings ever) and Starrcade 1998 did one of the best WCW buyrates, despite no big Hogan match on the show.

    They pretty much only killed him a a commodity in the aftermath of the Fingerpoke. His quarter hours were routinely off the charts particularly in January/February 1999 when they did some of their best ratings before the whole company started to really slide.

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  80. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 6:53 AM

    I believe in the right to bear arms. That being said, I live in Jersey and I hear all types of b.s.on gun control. At the end of the day it comes down to common sense, because it all guns were banned then people would try to kill each other with something else.
    On to the wrestling question, Goldberg should not have lost. They should have rode that train until the wheels fell off. I think they could have gotten another 6 - 8 months out of it before the crowd went apathetic.

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  81. Goldberg should have beaten Nash: there were several fresh feuds he could have had ( Sting, Flair, Hart, Savage)/ If they needed the belt of him, have him lose a ladder match, escape rules cage match or a three way where he wasn't pinned, and have him chase the champion.
    I think he would have let WCW survive a couple more years.

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  82. But doesn't the UK have an extremely high amount of knife violence? I mean, that's probably better than gun violence just because bullets can travel further than knives, but I don't think there's actually less violence.

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  83. Shouldn't it be wCw, not WcW? Or even just WCW?

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  84. Threadjack
    Ok, this is the letter i want to send to my friend i mentioned in previous threadjacks. I want to see if we can sort it out. Comments?
    'Hello

    I hope you've been well.

    I know what you said about wanting space and i am really sorry for this email, but it's been a few months now, and i thought it may be worth a try for me to contact you and to try and see if we can make amends.

    I feel i handled things badly earlier this year when you wanted space, and i am genuinely very sorry about that. I take the majority of the blame for how things are between us now. However, although it's my fault for pushing you in the position where you had to say them, I also feel that there were a few things said by you which were unfair and have troubled me.

    However, I want to assure you this a genuine attempt on my part to try and resolve things between us. It is not an attempt to push myself back into your life in a way you don't want, nor is it a way to dredge up old issues and to 'point score'. I understand you don't want it to be like it was before, and after what you said in your last few emails, i wouldn't be comfortable with us being that way again either. However, we've been an important part of each other's lives for a long time, i don't like the way things were left between us, and i want us to try and make things a little better if we can. At the end of the day, life is short, and i still feel our friendship is overall a positive thing which can still be worthwhile in both our lives in some form. I am certainly finding it very hard to find anyone else to talk about this last series of Misfits with:-)

    If you want to meet up , i will leave it in your hands to sort out. There is no time limit on your decision obviously. If you don't want to meet up, i will be disappointed that this is your decision, but i understand and will bear you no ill will for this choice. I bear no hard feelings or grudges at all, and i hope you don't. Over the last few years, you've been a good friend when i've been low and really supportive, so regardless of how things are now and what happens in the future, i will always be grateful to you for that. I know some of the stupid things i've said or done may make you doubt this, but i've only ever tried to be a good friend to you. '

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  85. The undefeated streak still had legs, but no way does Goldberg ever reach the levels of Hogan, Austin, Rock. He couldn't talk for shit and was still too green in the ring. Hogan isn't a great wrestler by any means, but he understood when to begin his comeback and how to play the crowd like a fiddle.

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  86. Human nature is what it is, but minimizing the capacity to do big damage to others can do wonders.

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  87. Nope. Deaths in the US due to gun violence are a lot higher than the deaths in the UK due to knife violence.

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  88. I know a lot of people disagree, but I don't really think the way this played out was that bad. The streak needed to end (sooner than later, I think), because with it intact you limit your options for booking Goldberg (no screwjob or cheap losses, and I don't know how easy it would have been to freshen Goldberg up if you let his schtick get stale.
    Plus, as a couple of us were discussing in the last WCW thread, I actually think the booking through the fingerpoke worked pretty well for them, and had they actually finished it off right with Goldberg running through the NWO to get to Hogan and putting the group down for good, it probably would have done really strong business for them and allowed for tying up the NWO angle proper.

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  89. I definitely agree with Goldberg not being a long-term answer... but using him to get to a long term answer would have been better than NWO Circlejerk #533. (Own the entire collection, on 69 lovingly handcrafted VHS cassettes. For only $4 each, or $220 for the entire collection.)

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  90. Not talking deaths, but total incidents. Obviously guns are more deadly than knives.

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  91. Higher per capita, or just a higher raw number?

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  92. "Reason being: there is never going to be a good way to end it, and the performer is over strictly due to his streak."


    I remember reading Terry Taylor say that if it was up to him, the streak would have never ended. So I totally disagree with Cornette. If something is making money (and Goldberg was PRINTING money), who cares about ending it?

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  93. "The streak needed to end"


    Why?

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  94. It could've definitely worked, but as usual WCW didn't follow through. Goldberg needed to single-handedly dismantle the nWo once and for all.

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  95. Isn't that a major part of being a great wrestler?

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  96. "he understood when to begin his comeback and how to play the crowd like a fiddle."


    No one played a crowd better than Bill Goldberg. He drew the biggest house in WCW history.


    To say he would never reach the level of those guys is bullshit, BECAUSE HE DID! He was just as big as Austin in 1998 and anyone who says otherwise is either a WWF fanboy, wasn't alive in 1998 or puts too much stock into workrate.


    Dude was in every mainstream publication you can name, not to mention being namedropped on ESPN like every day. Give me a break.

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  97. Maybe too confrontational for a nice letter but I don't know the original context.

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  98. Both.
    And if banning guns turns deaths into injuries, surely that would be a good thing?
    I understand it's a cultural thing for people to have guns in the USA, but the lack of propoer gun control is leading to more deaths. If that is something the american's are ok with, then fair enough!

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  99. True. I guess I meant in a more technical sense. I love me some 80s Hogan. He and Piper did soooooooo much while doing so little. Masters.

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  100. I ask because a higher raw number means jack and shit. 320 million > 60 million.

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  101. There was so much $$$ left in Goldberg's streak, it's not even funny. They never even got to point of bringing in outside guys to challenge the streak. Like when they brought Sid in to feud with him in late 1999 when it didn't mean anything.


    Now imagine an undefeated for 3-years Goldberg getting attacked by a returning Sid? They had a series of 2-3 month feuds they could've run for YEARS against any wrestler that ever had name value.

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  102. Thanks. Anything in particulr you think is confrontaional and which i should remove? I really don;t want her to be even more pissed at me, though at the same time, i want her to know that she has acted like a bit of a bitch.

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  103. Unless Goldberg keeps improving as a wrestler, that would get old. A WWF Hogan or Sammartino-length reign would have been DISASTER, in an era where the champ was exposed much more often than back then.

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  104. Despite the fact that Kidd was getting the biggest pops of the night

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  105. Im not sure if I agree with Cornette either, I think his point was that Goldberg was so over due to his undefeated streak that he never had to learn or improve in the ring, on the mic, etc. So when the streak ends, GGoldbeg is exposed and essentially his days as a draw are over.

    Like I said I dont know if I agree with this. I also dont want to misquote Cornette bc I dont don't remember if it was him who said it.

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  106. Oh yeah, defintiely higher per capita. Violent crime leading to death is relatively low in the UK. Our last school massacre was somethign like 15 years ago.

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  107. Stranger in the AlpsNovember 6, 2013 at 7:19 AM

    Mornin', L'il Doomers.
    I think it was the fact that Goldberg losing to Nash was what set people off. Nash was booking at the time, and put himself over the hot over guy. Just like when Nash beat Wrath, when Wrath was on a roll and getting over. If Goldberg beats Nash at Starrcade, that's a better result. Hogan going over and getting the title back would have also been a bad choice, just like milke on a hot day. I think Goldberg carries the title until SuperBrawl and loses it to Sting, but they book it so that NWO shenanigans cause the title loss. I can't see anything else changing much. Goldberg's streak ends with the loss, but he goes on the same roll he did before and stays in the main event, except for the run with Bam Bam Bigelow. Russo still comes in and still turns Goldberg heel in 2000, which was a decision that was infinitely worse than ending the streak.
    Gun control: the only issue I have is that there is no mental health check on buyers. What do all the mass shooters have in common? They are batshit crazy. SANE people don't kill people. If they did, there would be MORE mass shootings.

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  108. Well, at some point, to give you more options with writing for Goldberg. You aren't going to be able to run with him as someone who's never going to lose forever, especially since he wasn't a good enough worker to at least give you ***1/2 matches consistently along the way.

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  109. There was still soooooooooo much mileage in Goldberg's streak, there is no way stsrccade 98 was the right time to job him. The "oh well the streak hurts him more because at some point it has to end" logic is Nash bull. It was the last thing they had that was drawing so of course Nash had to go over him and try and absorb that heat. I'll never get why hogan doesn't have to job clean in 97, but Goldberg ate the pin (taser or not) in 98

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  110. Personally I am really looking forward to Libertarikane

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  111. I hope so, I think that would be a great gimmick, and would get him heat some places and face heat others.

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  112. Id quote "Kim" from the original Marshall Mathers cd word for word and send that.

    Jk

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  113. I used that joke already, but it is still funny.

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  114. I hate this use of "school massacres"... it seems intentionally aimed at the "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" crowd.



    A massacre is a massacre, no matter where it happens.

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  115. I watched WCW throughout the Monday Night Wars. Austin was huge for a few years; Goldberg was huge for a few months. He was just too limited to be a long-term sustainable megastar.

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  116. You and I are going to be so close by the end of this angle.

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  117. Exactly, and I think this works out pretty well for them. You get Goldberg both chasing the belt and waging war against the NWO, you can book PPV matches with Hall, Steiner, Nash, and Hogan, and then you can write out the NWO.

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  118. If by "too limited" you mean "Hogan cut his legs off" then sure.

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  119. So your complaint is more about the people in the main story, more than it is about the story itself?

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  120. The days of the Hogan "superface" winning against all odds and comers died with Hogan in the WWF. Goldberg doing that would have seen the crowd slowly turn on him, or even turn off the product.


    He did have shelf life remaining on the streak, but saying he had years left doesn't add up.

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  121. Well in particular the two parts where you attributed some fault to her.The second sentence of the 2nd paragraph. 3rd sentence of the last paragraph. They come across a little "fightey" for a nice apology. Save it for a more opurtune moment.

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  122. If he tries to slam Big Show and can't so he has to drop him we can say "I guess the world got to heavy for Atlas and he shrugged"


    Also the choke slam needs to start being called "The Invisible Hand"

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  123. He had a ponytail that edition of Raw that they tried to get him to shave his beard.

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  124. Only in WWE can the guy who is totally right be a heel (SeS Punk) that's why that is one of my favorite heel stables ever.

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  125. Hogan's no angel, but he had nothing to do with Goldberg's lackluster in-ring ability or his lack of mic skills. There's only so much you can do with a guy who can only use a spear, a jackhammer, and a snarl.

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  126. Upvote for Bull

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  127. I do have one question semi-related... Other than Hogan, who had creative control in their WCW contracts?

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  128. Can you honestly question his methods with those results?

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  129. I think the problem is that WCW just didn't have enough good workers in the main event scene to make that work. He'd already worked with DDP, which left....who? Bret, I guess, but I don't remember if his hiatus was a given or not. But it's not like you can have him doing **** matches with Nash and Hogan and Piper and Flair on every PPV.

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  130. When I was 12 at the time I loved it, but now in my late 20s no way was it good for business. The streak should have been used to elevate a new talent BBC whoever beat goldy would be an instant star, Nash didn't need it. Than of course the finger poke of doom happened....

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  131. Ok cool. Thanks!

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  132. That's not what I'm talking about, rather I'm talking about the way Hogan headlined the next four PPVs (yeah yeah Goldberg closed out HH, but please) after he dropped the belt to Goldberg, who got ONE real title defense in that span.

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  133. And I blame that on the booking between Goldberg/Hogan and Goldberg/Nash. Put him in the ring with main eventers on EVERY PPV and at least one Nitro per month, and let them stretch him to his limits.


    If he improves (DDP + Sting showed that Goldie had something else), keep the streak going. If not, start planning an endgame ASAP.

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  134. True, but UK overall hasn;t had a massacre in years.

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  135. Goldberg and Flair would have been a 3*+ match, easy

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  136. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 7:30 AM

    It would have been better to limit his exposure almost to the point of him being a special attraction. That's the best way to extend his drawing power.

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  137. I hold same opinion as you on gun control. It's scary to think of some of these lunatics being able to carry firearms.

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  138. I'm really only talking about his long-term future. Without substantial improvement in multiple areas, there's just no way he ascends to the highest level. And there's nothing wrong with that. He still carried WCW for a good chunk of '98.

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  139. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 7:33 AM

    My personal opinion? Don't send this. Only reach out if they want to talk. If they don't move on.

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  140. I agree, honestly, and really think it's a damn shame they didn't do Flair/Goldberg at Starrcade instead (and then run Nash/Goldberg more or less the same way at Superbrawl), but he's pretty much the only one in the bunch other than Bret and Sting (if he's feeling like working that night) that could do that.

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  141. 1. The way Shawn explained it sure made it sound like Triple H asked him to do what he did before the match even started. If the intended idea there was that Shawn "being there for his best friend" was superkicking the guy who kneed him, they did a shitty job of getting that across.

    2. Doesn't matter. Even in abeyance, it's a still a shot at the belt gifted to the guy who Triple H doesn't want as champion. Why not book Orton vs. Ambrose or some shit?

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  142. Hard to say who should have ended it, but I don't think Nash was the right person and I don't think it should have ended when it did. He should have had at least a year, if not longer. As long as it was making money.


    I think that Cornette's logic is flawed. Yes the streak gets the wrestler over, but he can stay over if there is a plan around the first loss. It often seems that the booking for the first loss is done half-ass, without a plan to keep the momentum.


    As far as gun control, I am a rare breed: I'm a hunter who is in favor of strict gun control laws. I have no problem going through background checks before purchasing guns, and I don't see it as being an infringement on my rights.

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  143. Would you rather have a government that plays nurse maid to you so you can be 100% safe at all times. Or would you rather live in a world of individual liberties and then a large amount of personal responsibility. The vaaaaassssttt majority of our shooting deaths come from inner city gang violence with illegal guns anyways. And where this is a demand for illegal weapons you better believe there will be a black market to provide those guns, and the more illegal the item the more dangerous and violent that black market. Heroin is illegal but its still sold. You outlaw guns that inner city gang shit ain't stopping.

    Could you save some deaths by getting rid of the 2nd amendment? Of course. And you would catch way more criminals if you got rid of the 4th and 5th amendment so why not do that too?

    Imo, the whole I'm scared, so let me give my personal freedoms back to the government so I feel safer is completely unamerican and has never worked out well once in world history.

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  144. Well, I disagree with that. Goldberg was athletic enough to be carried to a good, even great, match, and he was physically imposing/over enough that there was no need for him to cut great promos. He moved merchandise, people wanted to see him, and he was good enough in the ring to keep people engaged. He would have been in that A+ category with ease if not for Hogan and Nash, and he might have even saved WCW.

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  145. That's a good point but those guys were having dud main events every night, so you might as well put the guy the fans want in the match.

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  146. I'm sorry - I keep reading that as "Kane the Librarian".
    Carry on.

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  147. As a resident of DC, where a shooting was basically shrugged off because it was aimed at adults employed by the Navy, I totally agree.

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  148. I think Goldberg is kind of a unique case where it was better to end it sooner rather than later, because if you let him get to the point of being stale I don't see how you make him back into something people are interested in seeing.

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  149. Was savage still having good matchs then?

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  150. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 7:40 AM

    He was carrying DDP to some good matches, IIRC.

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  151. Savage was out at that point, and after he came back I don't really remember him having any good matches.

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  152. Yeah. There are things i will take a stand on, but i figure i'd be the bigger person to get her 'to the table' as it were/
    I shluld just move on, but i feel i need one more chance to try and fix it. She was one of my best friends:-(

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  153. And that's all well and good in the short-term. But if you don't have a character or gimmick, you can't talk, and you can't consistently put on a decent 10-minute match, how are you going to ascend to the highest of levels, a level only reached by the very best in wrestling history? I just don't see it. There's only so much you can do with someone under such limitations.

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  154. How the hell did Goldberg not have a character? Big Awesome Badass doesn't count now?

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  155. Thank you.

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."



    Ben Franklin.

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  156. plenty of sane people kill people. They don't tend to go on mass shootings, but I'd wager "killed by a sane dude with a gun" is responsible for way more deaths than "crazy multi person shooting."

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  157. WCW runs WWE out of business. WCW gets bought by some ownership group anyway. WCW gets run into the ground. Pro wrestling is dead forever on a national scale.

    In a way, Nash is our hero.

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  158. Highlight of the night was Kane in his suit. However, they lost me shortly after when Kane did nothing by make some pinpoint chair throws into the ring.


    I don't know if it bugged anyone else, but Big Show is not only main eventing, but is now stealing Bryan's "Yes, Yes, Yes" schtick? So it seems to me now that the entire point of building Bryan was to put over the Big Show, someone they didn't have enough trust in to main event Wrestlemania 2K when he was the most over?!?!?! Confusing as all hell. . .

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  159. Goldberg does not pull off the first. By the time he hit the scene, the WWF was back on solid (enough) ground.


    But WCW blowing itself up anyway? Totally plausible.

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  160. Dont u live in CA? Isnt it like 400am there?

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  161. Let us not forget that the night after Starrcade Nash challenged Goldberg to a match the following Nitro. But come that Nitro, Goldberg was "arrested" for whatever-the-angle was with Elizabeth and then came the finger-poke. Like others have said, its not the losing that hurt Goldberg, it was the follow up booking.
    Meanwhile on Raw Mick Foley was winning the WWE title. What would you watch?

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  162. The only real difference in the look might be a pair of glasses.

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  163. 8:45 AM here, so 6:45 AM there.

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  164. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc’d may be attended with much Inconvenience.

    - Ben Franklin on porking older women

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  165. If you want to count that as a character, it's an extremely weak, one-dimensional one. Either way, not good for the long-term. Again, talking about *long-term* success.

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  166. Ron Paul Sr has always, to the best of my knowledge, been a Republican. I wish he'd go the Independent route, but I believe he's not running for office of any kind any more.

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  167. And the idiots running Nitro TOLD the people Foley was going to win... Schiavone still catches a lot of flak for that. Some deserved... but some of it should go to whoever told him to say it also.

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  168. Man im off. I thought it was 845 for some reason

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  169. Something that'll put butts in the seats.

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  170. He stood and said he would take our hate, take our scorn.
    He told us to condemn him. to set the dogs on him. He'd do what was right for business.
    He's not the hero we deserved, but the hero we needed.

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  171. I don't see any reason to believe that wasn't going to keep working for a long time. Hell, it had the crowd going fucking nuclear at Summerslam 2000 ferchrissakes.

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  172. Whatever they do, it will never be as strong as Parallex' Pimp Hand.

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  173. I think the best case scenario, which happens in a perfect world, is that he holds the belt until December 99, still hurts his hand, and is off TV for 6 months (or however long it was). Allows the staleness factor to wear off, gets the belt onto someone else, and creates a ready made story for when he comes back.

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  174. ...For a new audience after a couple years away from wrestling.

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  175. Depends on if you think owing a gun is an essential liberty.

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  176. Eh, he said that in a very different world than we currently live in. His generation also thought slavery and women having zero say in anything were swell ideas.

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  177. I know it's cool for the IWC to crap all over Nash when it comes to the Goldberg incident, but really Nash wasn't a bad choice to end the streak, since the guy was very over at the time.


    I guess in a way, it would of made better sense if you could rebook it if WCW thought that much ahead like say, Nash was still in nWo Hollywood, you still have Goldberg beating Hogan, Hogan demands a rematch, but before he can get it, Nash earns the title shot first and is able to beat Goldberg, which pisses Hogan off and turns Nash face.


    And one new guy they could of used to end the streak and make into a megastar would have been Wrath as the guy was drawing a lot of pops before Nash derailed his career. Though, I think in hindsight it didn't matter much if Nash killed his momentum or not because Wrath just ended up being injury prone and wasn't the guy to build long term plans for.

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  178. See, it's interesting as a non-American (Australian) to read comments like this. It literally seems INSANE to most non-Americans to have such easy access to guns. It's such an amazing ingrained cultural thing. You say that inner-city gangs would still get access to guns if they were illegal. You're probably right, yet in my city, if a bullet is fired, it's MASSIVE news. There's still violence and crime and murder, of course, but never on the scale of American gun crime. It always astounds me US culture just excuses it away.


    We had an awful massacre in the 90s and our most conservative Prime Minister in history actually led the charge on gun reform. To put it in context, that would be like George Bush Snr. denouncing guns. Yet it happened. Because 35 people were shot in a massacre and we realised that's freakin' ridiculous.


    I'm preaching but I just find it such a weird and massive cultural divide.

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  179. That makes more sense than anything else I've read about these angles.

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  180. That's weak. That's the kind of shit. Vince would say if he were confronted with this sort of criticism.

    The WWE puts Raw amongst all the other "weekly episodic television programs." This shit would not fly on any other weekly episodic television program. Heads would roll if there was an episode of Mad Men where Don Draper got kidnapped by hillbillies, disappeared for 8 weeks and showed back up, nobody asked him what happened and suddenly he had a complete 180 degree personality shift.

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  181. Glad you recognize!

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  182. Oh and you know what happened on the Jan 11, 1999 Nitro? Kevin Nash and the nWo beat up our current #1 WWE angle good-guy sending him to the WWF.

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  183. Maybe. I think it's a real shame they never did a match with Flair as The Dirtiest Player in the Game trying to end the streak, but again I think the basic layout of "the NWO screws Goldberg out of the belt (at a point when Goldberg and the NWO had mostly been kept apart in the main event scene at that) which leads to Goldberg beating them all, taking the belt from Hogan on PPV, and ending them for good" would have been a huge moneymaker and would have still had everyone thinking of Goldberg as an unbeatable monster without the formality of the undefeated record to work around.

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  184. Stranger in the AlpsNovember 6, 2013 at 7:54 AM

    All right, I'll give you that. But what I should have said is that sane people don't have that wanton need for all out destruction that schizophrenics have. I live with a schizophrenic stepson, and he says things like "I can blow up the world" and "give me a gun and I would kill people". A sane person is more likely to commit the act in self-defense or temporary rage, which cannot be detected with a mental health check. All I can think is the recent tragedies would probably have been prevented if these shooters were treated properly and medicated, and not allowed the opportunity to purchase weapons, or even be near them. Families with mentally ill members need to reconsider arming themselves.

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  185. FWIW, this is probably not right. If you tightened up the American gun market, there's going to be a metric shit-ton fewer guns manufactured every year.

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  186. 653 dude. Early as fuck but I gotta be at work by 630 for the market

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  187. You don't have to be a member of the party to be a Libertarian... a lot of Americans claim to be Libertarian because they like to seem deliberative or something when in reality they just vote Republican all the time.


    If I am not mistaken our very own Todd Lorenz is a libertarian who says he is an independent for example.

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  188. Porn-Peddling Jef VinsonNovember 6, 2013 at 7:57 AM

    When I was in the similar situation I simply wrote, "I would really like to talk about some of the things that have happened between us. I'll be at [X] this weekend. if you want to meet up."
    By doing this you have established the time and place. If she agrees to meet up then she is going to be receptive to your talk. If she makes excuses why she can't meet with you or initially agrees but constantly changes the time, then politely tell her. "I see you have a lot going on. Call me when you can make time for me." Stand firm, if she suddenly can make time, the good. If not, charge it to the game and MOVE ON.
    Also, your letter pretty much tells her what you want to say, so there is no need to talk. Don't reveal everything because all you'll be doing is saying the same thing you put in your letter and she will call you out on that. That's why it is better to keep it short.
    Finally, don't come across as needy (or as my friends say, a "Keith Sweat song" Don't beg, don't plead, don't make compromises. Just tell her how you feel. If she is willing to salvage your friendship that should be enough. If not MOVE ON.

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  189. I get up at 545 every day other than wknds bro

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  190. Question: You say things became a problem because she wanted space and you handled it badly. Have you given her some space? If so, how much?


    My opinion? Send a card, something close to an in-joke between the two of you, put "Hope you're well" inside and sign it. You can follow up on it later.

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  191. and amidst the convoluted angles, they try and simplify them and end up with nothing resembling reality.

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  192. I heard the last time he tore his quad, he also wound up with split ends.

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  193. I hear ya man. Gotta get paid. I renember the 530 am alarm clock routine for residency. Adderall, red bulls and coffee were my 3 best buds during those years

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