Hi Scott,
So I know WWE network can't or won't get the rights fees for any ECW stars who used actual rock or rap songs as their entrance, thus they dubbed over them with corny generic songs. However, how did ECW get the rights to these songs to use them originally? I figure they didn't get the rights to them. And since they were such a small operation, were the bands not aware their songs were being used? Would the band Prong for example go after WWE if they let Justin Credible's entrance audio remain as is?
Thanks,
As noted many times, Paul Heyman simply used the music and hoped that no one in the music business would notice. That didn't work out well for him in the long run, obviously.
Actually, did Paul ever get in trouble for using that stuff? I honestly cannot recall any lawsuits or legal actions taken against him... he stopped using it once there was any heat IIRC.
ReplyDeleteI've always wondered why WWE doesn't have the rights to the ECW music that was on the ECW soundtrack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECW:_Extreme_Music
ReplyDeleteI mean, I know they can't use Metallica's Enter Sandman, but why not swap it out with the Motorhead version instead of some generic rock riff? etc.
He said in Austin's podcast that he was friends with Jimmy Iovine who founded Interscope music so maybe he had Jimmy call in favors any time he got in trouble.
ReplyDeleteI agree Lemmy would have let them use it in a second.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that simple.
ReplyDeleteThey need permission from the performer, the composer and all publishers involved. That is not easy.
While Lemmy is pals with Triple H (not just based on the 3 entrance songs, Lemmy thanks Triple H in all of the linear notes of recent Motorhead albums), but it wouldn't just be up to Lemmy. He just performed on the track, he didn't write it or publish the song.
ReplyDeleteI just don't get why ECW went through all the hoops to get Motorhead to cover the song on the CD but didn't go the extra mile to get the rights to the music to use in compilation videos. It could've saved Heyman a ton of dough if ECW ever got legit big and Metallica started suing him for making millions off DVDs that used their music without permission.
the ECW dvds released by Pioneer didn't use the original songs, either (they were also dubbed over).
ReplyDeleteWorth the risk, it made ECW seem like the cool promotion.
ReplyDeleteand obviously it's a lot cheaper to get the rights for a live broadcast than the rights to "redistribute" (sort-of) a song by putting it on a dvd or bluray.
ReplyDeleteBut their old tapes definitely did. I had a few back in the day. I guess by the Pioneer days they were smart enough to swap it. But again, swapping stuff like the Sandman's Motorhead would've worked.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall. ECW didn't have a ton of large commercial VHS releases, though. I only found a few "Best of ECW" tapes at my local Sam Goody's (which later became Fye's and then went out of business) and those tapes completely got rid of the entrances and hence, the possibly music problems. The RF tapes were pretty similar too IIRC.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
ReplyDeleteI miss FYE.
ReplyDeletePaul, it's the music industry. Someone will always notice.
ReplyDeleteI don't. It was horribly overpriced.
ReplyDeleteThat stuff was even being done in the Crockett days, it was pretty weird seeing Jimmy Garvin strut around to generic music instead of Sharp Dressed Man on the Saturday Night shows.
ReplyDeleteThat's just it. You license the song for one-time use and that's that. You license it for reproduction and distribution and now there's royalties, points, etc.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm not sure where the "it didn't work out for him" came from. Of all the people who sued Heyman/ECW, I don't remember any bands/labels doing it.
ReplyDeleteRandom thought: When I was sitting at the bar last night someone played Black Betty and all I could think was how great a song that would be for a face Bray Wyatt.
ReplyDeleteThat is all.
That's still weird to me with the Crockett stuff - I still imagine Rock and Roll is King for the RnRs, Dusty using Old Time Rock and Roll, etc.
ReplyDeleteMemphis was so egregious with their music videos. I can't imagine how long it will take to dub over that stuff when god willing it gets to the Network. Just paying Jimmy Hart for his stuff would be a chore.
ReplyDeleteRF Video currently sells DVD-R copies of ECW PPVs, Hardcore TV, ECW on TNN, the big events ECW released on VHS (last one being Cyberslam 1999), and fan cams. No music alterations at all.
ReplyDeleteECW footage released by Delta in the UK does have dubbed-in replacement music. Pioneer Entertainment in the U.S. released 12 ECW titles and simply deleted entrances (except in Sandman's case, where they just replaced the Metallica version of the song with Motorhead's).
The royalty this is just so fucking stupid. If anything the artist makes money from the exposure. I was a huge fan of ECW in the 90's and bought numerous albums because of a song that I heard on ECW TV.
ReplyDeleteAnd does UFC and boxing pay the royalties? Because they all use real music.
The fighter/his camp probably does, or they're friends with the label execs/producers/artists...
ReplyDeleteIt was a huge part of their image. When I had WWE 24/7 the only thing I DIDN'T watch was ECW shows because the dubbing just neutered them.
ReplyDeleteWWE is the publisher of any music Jimmy Hart and Jim Johnston did for them.
ReplyDeleteYou bet they do.
ReplyDeleteAnd artists have a right to be compensated for what they create.
This is pre-WWE though.
ReplyDeletei believe Jimmy has said he would let them use his music for free. They just never asked him
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wrestlecrap.com/icfyt/our-favorite-it-came-from-youtubes-ever/
ReplyDeleteSeeing the first one on here get butchered music-wise might only make it funnier.
I think it can be argued that they do. Indirectly.
ReplyDeleteI'm talking about WWE theme music written by Jimmy Hart. WWE is the publisher (as Stephanie Music). Same for Jim Johnston.
ReplyDeleteFor me, it was the one place where they had a large choice of wrestling DVD's to look through.
ReplyDeleteWe're talking pre-WWE, when Jimmy did a lot of stuff for Memphis.
ReplyDeleteI always thought wwe should have played an instrumental version of enter sandman and have the crowd sing the lyrics during their version of ecw. It would have been a good alternative.
ReplyDeleteJimmy Hart was a legit musician before he was a manager
ReplyDeleteSuch as? The territories used mainstream music. Outside of Badstreet USA and the Wrestling Album, original music made specifically for a given wrestler was rare until the late-'80s and early-'90s.
ReplyDeleteMemphis did a lot of music video promos for incoming guys... I'm sure some of them used music by Hart.
ReplyDelete... but I could be off-target, I admit.
"As noted many times"
ReplyDeleteScott could put this for almost every email he posts on here.
Actually, that's not the case, Scott is wrong. There was a way of getting around rights issues that I can't remember the specifics of.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know. But WWE is the publisher of all the themes Hart (and Jim Johnston) wrote for WWE. Watch WCW footage from when Jimmy worked there (1994 to the end), and you'll notice that they never used Jimmy's WWE music.
ReplyDeleteThat actually doesn't change anything though. They still would have to pay Metallica for writing the song, lyrics or not. Playing a karaoke version doesn't change the fact that it's Metallica's song.
ReplyDeleteWCW might have gotten away with their knock-off theme music, but they weren't just instrumental versions of the actual songs.
Wasn't Paul's dad a lawyer for the big music producer types?
ReplyDeleteAnyone have an idea on how much WWE had to pay Living Colour for Cult of Personality? I bet Living Colour are the most heartbroken over Punk walking out. That was the most airplay those dudes have gotten in 20 some years.
ReplyDeleteI'm talking specifically about the songs he did on local Memphis labels, like We Hate School and Lance Russell's nose. I can't imagine the rights ownership issues there considering the mess that the wrestling rights are
ReplyDeleteAnd has a wierd mix of AWESOME (Steen) and HORRIBLY genenric (Elgin)
ReplyDeleteI'd have gone with Darling Nikki.
ReplyDeleteThere was one he used for a hot minute which was great, this throbbing instrumental track http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k37KKVkSgS8
It's probably not an obscene amount of money or WWE wouldn't do it. What probably would be an obscene amount of money would be getting sued later for using it without permission.
ReplyDeleteThat's actually a good point that might explain the situation. Nonetheless, I know several early ECW tapes were sold with the music intact because I had them.
ReplyDeleteOh man all day showings of Godzilla at the cool theatre starting at 1015? Fuck this im going in. I love getting excited about a cool looking pop corn movie.
ReplyDeleteThey should try to do more stuff with bands that aren't as hot, but have known tracks. Quiet Riot would probably jump at the chance to have WWE use Metal Health as an entrance song.
ReplyDeleteThat is cool as hell. Forgot about that one -- has a Midnight Express meets Scarface vibe.
ReplyDeleteHave fun.
ReplyDeleteI knew of Cult of Personality from Guitar Hero first, and it was in two of those (III and Smash Hits) so it's not entirely obscure outside of a wrestling context.
ReplyDeleteThe "ECW Home Video" VHS releases that ECW was always advertising on their TV shows never had music changed.
ReplyDeleteI love how low budget they were as I have November to Remember 1996, Barely Legal, and Buffalo Invasion 1997 that I got directly from ECW, and the box is just a plain, white slipcover with nothing on it and a big hole so you can see the label on the face of the tape.
Yeah WCW changed things up very, very slightly on things. However, if Nirvana was going to sue WCW, then Boston would get to sue them both for copyright infringement lol.
ReplyDeleteI remember that too. I did make out on their low budget shipping one time. I ordered two tapes and a Taz shirt and they tossed in a Sabu and ECW shirt as well.
ReplyDeleteKind of a dick move to put "As noted many times" too. Whoever sent that e-mail obviously didn't see these supposed "noted many times". It's also false information because Rob Zombie appeared on ECW a couple times, one time even introducing Lance Storm's entrance theme, which was a Rob Zombie song.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't necessarily obscure, but by the time Punk used it in WWE it was a 23 year-old song by a late 80s/early 90s band that barely releases new music anymore. They probably played to more people at WrestleMania 29 than they do in six months of gigs.
ReplyDeleteAs Dusty said above, it definitely was the most mainstream exposure that the band has had in over a decade.
I agree, but I think WWE will rather own the music outright, especially now with all the headaches with stripping music from their archives for DVDs and the Network.
ReplyDeleteAs long as they pull out a good outside track every once in a while (like the Wyatt Family theme, which is a perfect fit), I'm good.
They still used mainstream music on television right up until the company ended.
ReplyDeleteThe smart move at this point would be to use music from good bands that haven't been around or relevant in a long while: Getting deals from Letters To Cleo, Fear Factory, Hydrogyn, Cheap Trick, Black Label Society, Neurotica, Fireball Ministry etc. would be pretty easy and fairly inexpensive considering it would be the most exposure those bands had gotten in a long time and in all likelihood, it would boost iTunes and Amazon mp3 purchases of their music.
ReplyDeleteCase in point: Kid Kash.
ReplyDeleteWell, the smart move would actually be for WWE to write, record, and produce all its own music so the company doesn't have to pay anyone for anything.
ReplyDeleteCult of Personality was a great theme for Punk, but it's not like WWE gained much from using it besides giving Punk a cool theme. It really benefited Living Colour. It does far more for the bands than for WWE, which is why the company doesn't do it more often.
Shouldn't they be able to get the rights to use a couple songs. couldn't they do some cross promotion advertising and so on with Metallica? Also do something with Cube and Dre so that we can get New Jack back on the shows.
ReplyDeleteSince I was curious:
ReplyDeleteGuitar Hero III sold, 16,180,000 in 2007 (http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=guitar+hero+iii)
Smash Hits sold 1,480,000 in 2009 (http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=guitar+hero%3A+smash+hits)
WM 29 sold 1,048,000 in 2013 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1653556-wwe-wrestlemania-29-suffers-drastic-drop-in-buys-from-previous-year)
And people I knew were alternately cursing Cult of Personality for being so hard to play and being very proud for getting past it, so I figure it has to be at least a somewhat memorable presence on the games overall.
ScottyFlamingo has a point. Why would you prevent someone from using your music in what turns into basically free advertising? It seems to me like a case of killing the goose that laid the golden eggs.
ReplyDeletei think those were Interscope artists though and cheaper covers.
ReplyDeleteA synch and master license for COP in all media, assuming worldwide territory and unlimited rights for 15/30/60 edits for promos and excerpts is probably running them between 250-350k on an annual basis. Best guess is that they got a bundled license to save money and aren't using some of their rights (theatrical, for example).
ReplyDeleteNope. Guilty As Charged 2001 was ECW's last televised show, and it had a ton of mainstream music (Rage Against the Machine, Fear Factory, AC/DC, Alice in Chains, LL Cool J, Kid Rock, Metallica).
ReplyDeleteOn the same subject, there's a been a myth perpetuated over the last decade or so that Sandman actually used the Motorhead cover of "Enter Sandman" at one point. He never did. On the Pioneer Entertainment ECW releases that came out prior to WWE buying the ECW footage in 2003, the Motorhead cover was dubbed-in, by right up until the very end, he used the original Metallica version.
They're able to license a popular song like "Cult of Personality", however they weren't able to license "World Goes Wild" for Adam Rose?
ReplyDeleteUhh idk what Keith is drinking. It worked out great for them, then when it didn't they hired the slash tones to cover popular songs for their wrestlers. Obviously it worked great for heyman because he doesn't have to deal with the problem.
ReplyDeletePunk sells/sold a lot of merchandise.
ReplyDeleteNew Jack's matches were put restored to the ECW shows on WWE Network several weeks ago.
ReplyDeleteHowever, because they couldn't change the music without losing the original commentary, Joey Styles had to record new commentary for them (except the match with Mustafa at LD 1999, which seems to be the exception). It's not too bad until the shows where Cyrus was on commentary with Joey. With Joey's new voiceovers, it looks like Cyrus just vanished during New Jack matches.
cool i hadn't not heard about this but had been saying why don't they (do everything you just said) as soon as the news the new jack stuff was taken down.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, I'm sure you just love a movie icon like Godzilla, who is most known for stomping fleeing Asians into the ground. You're all over this movie!
ReplyDeleteEven though its understandable I hate it when they dub different music for ppl. It makes it where u can't hear the crowd as well. Goldberg is the worst cuz in wcw he got huge pops but now when wwe shows his matches it doesn't sound like he gets a very big ovation. Does Goldberg's wcw theme even need music rights or does vince just want ppl to think wwe's entrance music for Goldberg is the only one he had. They sound almost the same
ReplyDeleteEvery time something about ECW comes up I either think, "Mah gawd that Paul Heyman was fucking brilliant!" or "Who the fuck did that jackass think he was fooling!?" There's no middle ground.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't saying Living Colour was obscure just not as popular. They play clubs now when they used to tour with the Stones. They're happy to have their music played in games or on WWE because it increases sales. Where a group like Metallica would charge an arm and a leg because they're still selling out stadiums or even Guns n' Roses. The latest version plays mainly in smaller venues and overseas but their stuff is in such heavy rotation on classic radio etc that they can charge more because they don't need the extra exposure. Now the new GNR stuff might be a different case because it does need more airplay. Living Colour commented on Facebook a year ago about how happy they were with Punk exposing them to new fans. It was definitely a win for them.
ReplyDeleteFinally got to see Warrior: The Ultimate Legend. Lived up to the positive reviews. Very emotional toward the end. The cameras captured a lot of things Wrestlemania weekend, a nice peek backstage.
ReplyDeleteTrue. It would be better to get another songwriter though as Johnson seems burnt out for the last decade or so. When they commission largely unknowns like for Orton and Wyatt themes it is usually very cool.
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying it wasn't a win, it definitely was, especially with itunes getting more and more prevalent, but Guitar Hero was a demonstrably bigger win.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying he got sued, just that once he stopped using copyrighted music it turned into a huge hassle for everyone.
ReplyDeleteWould I rather have guaranteed money, or the vague idea that my song is being used "for publicity"? Hmm, let me see, I think I'd have to take the money. Come on.
ReplyDeleteImagine if you gave your song away for "free advertising" for a movie, and that movie makes a billion dollars. Instead of collecting a fat royalty check, you get jack. That's why you license music. Cause you never know when something might make a boatload of money.
ReplyDeleteExcept the chord progression in "More Than A Feeling" is completely different than the one in "Smells Like Teen Spirit;" different sequence, different notes entirely. Rhythmically it sounds sort of similar, I guess, but they could never win that lawsuit.
ReplyDeleteDDP's theme song, however, was almost identical to Nirvana's chord progression, with just the sequence of the final 2 of the 4 chords reversed.
I'm confused. Was anyone saying it wasn't? Of course more people were playing Guitar Hero video games in 2008 than were watching WWE in 2011.
ReplyDeleteThe point still stands that Cult of Personality was a 23 year old song by a band that's touring clubs when Punk started using it, so it probably wasn't very expensive for WWE to license it as opposed to ECW trying to license Enter Sandman in the 1990s (or WWE trying to do so today). Guitar Hero or not, it wasn't the same expense as trying to license a song from a much more popular band.
That's why Cult of Personality is still on DVDs of Punk's matches and Metallica's has been dubbed out. Heck, even Metallica's "For Whom The Bell Tolls" was dubbed out of Mania 28 DVD.
Their thinking behind not licensing "World Goes Wild" is probably, Why bother? We can just record a sound-alike and pay no money at all for a theme song for an unproven talent. Makes logical sense when you think about it that way.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Adam Rose wasn't likely to walk out unless "World Goes Wild" was a contractual stipulation.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, I just remember the guys in Nirvana joking about that. Cobain was pretty upfront about the fact that he was influenced by the song though it wasn't his intention to mimic it. Clearly it was WCW's intention -- I think DDP even said one time that he went to their music guy and said, "Copy 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'" or "Give me a song like 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'"
ReplyDeleteSlightly off topic: The funniest case of copyright infringement I can think of was the Rolling Stones' securing royalties from the Verve for "Bittersweet Symphony" since it sampled an orchestra version of "The Last Time."' Not long after that kd Lang successfully sued the Stones for ripping off the music for "Constant Craving" in "Anybody Seen My Baby" and she said it was because of the crap they pulled on the Verve.
The thing with The Verve is that they negotiated to use a sample of X seconds (the orchestra riff). What the Stones didn't know is that the riff was going to repeat throughout the song. The lawyers argued that a X second sample is one thing, but repeating that sample 20 times is completely different. I don't know if I agree with that personally, but it's a fair point.
ReplyDeleteYou're a bit off on the kd Lang thing though. The Stones approached kd Lang and gave her songwriting credit to AVOID the lawsuit when the similarity was pointed out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anybody_Seen_My_Baby
Also what if it is used by someone or something that you dislike? Crissy Hynde allows Rush Limbaugh to use her music on his radio show and makes it publicly known that she takes his money and donates to left wing causes, but a lot of people wouldn't want to do that. Jackson Browne disallowed McCain from using his music in his 2008 campaign because he didn't like him so it's not just for money. I'm sure the same thing would happen if Greenpeace wanted to use a Toby Keith song -- he wouldn't be happy. I'm sure there are musicians that don't want their music played at a wrestling show if given the choice. Most probably wouldn't mind as long as they got paid, but I'm sure a few would be upset for whatever reason.
ReplyDeleteadvertising for what? one of the biggest possible incomes are the royalties from movies, tv shows and video games.
ReplyDeletepotentially.
ReplyDeleteWow I did not know that. I could've sworn I heard MuchMusic say she was suing them years ago. I also didn't know about The Verve originally agreeing to a sample. That clears that up for me. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteor why (at least afaik) "Walk idiot walk" by The Hives was Christy Hemmes entrance music but gets dubbed for her appearinces on compilations etc (because in the meantime The Hives got real huge).
ReplyDeletedoes anybody know if Peter Gabriel's "Big time" is dubbed over for the WrestleMania 22 dvd release?
ReplyDeleteI can see it from that point of view. It IS only a vocal minority complaining, after all.
ReplyDeleteStill, World Goes Wild was so much better.
Why would you assume Metallica, Dre, etc. would want to be associated with wrestling?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure Cult of Personality was something Punk requested as part of his new deal and wasn't something the WWE wanted to do or got anything out of.
ReplyDeleteDidn't some legend say that Vince hates licensing music and when Punk got his, it proved to him how much Vince must have needed him at the time?
I wonder how much of it is Johnston being burnt out and how much of it is having nothing to work with.
ReplyDeleteLike, when Jericho discussed Johnston's theme song writing session, he said they discussed Jericho's favorite bands, brainstormed some riffs, worked on some lyrics based off Jericho's character/gimmick, etc.
Nowadays? I mean, if he has to write a theme for Generic Young Arrogant White Guy #2839940, what else is he gonna write besides Generic Buttrock Riff #2839940?
The homogenization of the roster has effects that go far deeper than a lot of people actively realize.
For live events, yes. This is why sports teams use For Whom The Bell Tolls and such all the time and don't have to pay at all.
ReplyDeleteIf it's a nationally-televised live event, things get a little more complicated and then more so again if it's being taped to be rebroadcast or sold.
Occam's Razor says Paul got away with it because ECW flew far enough under the radar that no one who mattered noticed.
No problem. I only know this because I'm a Stones fanatic. The timeline actually suggests that the Stones approached kd Lang because the Bittersweet Symphony thing just happened. The Verve album came out in July 97, Anybody See My Baby came out in September.
ReplyDelete"The little engine that could" thing made my allergies act up something fierce
ReplyDeleteWhy would you assume they wouldn't be? And I understand what you are saying but promotion is promotion and business is business and the WWE knows how to shill.
ReplyDeleteWeren't you too supposed to be feuding? Or did the BoD writers drop that angle after one week with no explanation?
ReplyDeleteDon't know if that's true but makes sense to me if it is. If I were Vince I'd be annoyed to shell out X dollars per year for a song knowing it's not making me any money in return.
ReplyDeleteMetal and wrestling - how could you not be more out of mainstream? Btw. WCW had Seek and Destroy for Sting...
ReplyDeleteOne of us is getting axed after BoD stock dropped 87% in the last 24 hours due to the lack of Meekin and Abeyance racial slurs at the Godzilla premiere.
ReplyDeleteI wonder which of you I will use my backstage BoD political power to get fired...
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing is still pretty eerie to me. They were making this documentary which turned out to be his memorial tribute video. The part with Hogan got to me. Too bad Savage never got a last moment in the sun.
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame nobody saw Warrior's red, sweat-beaded face and had a trainer check him out.
Yea watching it you can't help but go......nah.....Vince wouldn't have.....would he?
ReplyDeleteWatching Legends house..Water Exercise and Chitterlings! feel the excitement.
ReplyDeleteI have to saw that while the show is ....what it is..I like everyone..except Atlas and he's alright when he is not doing the wounded puppy.
ReplyDeleteWatching Hardcore TV Ep 37.
ReplyDelete