While working on the Clash 8 repost tonight, I had a quick thought that I wanted to share because NO ONE had mentioned it up until now: Why didn't they do a video package or even a mention leading up to the Brock-Undertaker match, or even the followup to it, where Paul Heyman mentions that he's the one who brought Undertaker into the wrestling business in the first place as Mean Mark Callous and he's been waiting to unleash this ultimate revenge for getting fired as his manager all these years? It would have been easy heat and reasoning and a neat callback to boot. They could show the footage of young Mean Mark and then bring it full circle with Heyman breaking his streak years later. I await my kudos from Paul on Twitter.
That would go against Undertaker's character.
ReplyDeleteI don't think WWE wants to ever associate Mean Mark with The Undertaker even though it would of made logical sense and been an awesome callback.
ReplyDeleteVince doesn't like Bikertaker seeing the light of day. There's no way in hell they're acknowledging Mean Mark
ReplyDeleteWhat the other members here said.
ReplyDeleteI said something about Undertaker being a Paul Heyman guy.
ReplyDeleteBut Vince and the wwe is never going to acknowledge "Mean" Mark.
Terrible,terrible idea.
ReplyDeleteWhat possible point could there be in acknowledging Mean Mark Callous? It wouldn't draw a extra nickle and takes away some of the Undertaker's mystique among the humanoids.
This reads like an e-Mail Scott would write off with a one line snide response.
ReplyDeleteWhich one? The zombie, the biker, the MMA specialist, the cult leader, or the grumpy old gunfighter?
ReplyDeleteYep, I thought it was a bad C&P job at first.
ReplyDeleteThe deadman character who in WWE world wasn't slumming in WCW in 1989. It hurts his aura especially when he is so protective of the Deadman character. It'd be different if he was still the Bad Ass.
ReplyDeleteI never liked the bikertaker seeing the light of day in the first place. Guy was friggin horrible in the ring. One of the great David Copperfield level tricks in the history of wrestling is Undertaker's ability to reinvent himself from a guy who was an atrocious worker who ate his opponent's alive and didn't get anyone but himself over, to a great worker who put on some all time classic matches.
ReplyDeleteI'd say breaking the streak was more damaging.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't that bad after he turned. And he wasn't anything to write home about after his reboot, until he started getting better opponents and less dates. But, Mean Mark stands no chance if WWE-ized Mean Mark makes Vince want to sneeze in horror.
ReplyDeleteWords can hurt. Unless it's me doing the snide responses, in which case they're hilarious.
ReplyDeleteJury is still out for me on breaking the streak. I understand why they did it, but I don't think this was the right feud or right opponent. I'm still shocked.
ReplyDeleteUnderbiker is in my top five least favorite performers in history. Yeah there are guys like El Gigante that were far worse in the ring, but Underbiker was horrid after being decent from 96-99 and he just ate guys up. I mean NO ONE came out of a match with UT looking better than they came in save Jeff Hardy, who only looked better by getting his ass kicked and getting up. It still didnt' put him over as a real threat for the belt or to UT, just as a guy who could take a shitkicking. If you remember some of Scott Keiths reviews from that time period where just hated UT, I was nodding along going "Motherfuckin' right!!!"
ReplyDeleteYou know bringing up Mean Mark could've been an easy out for ending the streak. Somehow Paul got into Undertaker's head and he became the WCW midcarder again instead of the unstoppable force. Not completely different than Kane being a bad ass if he has his mask and a JTTS without it.
ReplyDeleteI highly enjoy your snide comments. My original comment probably came off kinda assholish. Rough day. But I anxiously await the 2015 Scott Sez of this email with a snide comment added.
ReplyDelete.......Really?
ReplyDeleteHe's read one too many Jesse Baker email.
ReplyDeleteAlot of the stuff before and after he came back as a "real life" character was terrible, it's just looked at fondly (especially the after part) because of the big WM matches, which were scripted Randy Savage style, were against good to great workers and were situations where he was only working 5-10 matches (if that) a year.
ReplyDeleteThen you have this year, where they went outside that bubble, and the predictable happened.
Because fuck you, Scott. That's why.
ReplyDelete- WWE Creative
I could see them wanting to stay full kayfabe on the undertaker so much that they don't want to show any other footage of the guy.
ReplyDeleteYou know I thought the Undertaker vs. Brock match really sucked but then I watched John Cena vs. Bray Wyatt at Extreme Rules.
ReplyDeleteAlso I just remember when WCW as getting over "Where the Big Boys Play" they showed clips of Mean Mark getting beaten by Lugar with a clothesline.
Do you think the Undertaker would be beaten by a clothesline?
Damn, I'm shocked Bischoff never pulled that crap. I don't think they showed footage of Austin jobbing out in seconds to Hacksaw either.
ReplyDeleteI'm positive they did! I recall seeing snippets on Da Mothership of these exact things occurring. One with Lord Steven Regal beating up a top WWF guy too.
ReplyDeleteHe's always been the Undertaker, Whoever this WCW JTTS called "Mean Mark" is, he has NOTHING to do with the Vince McMahon Creation that is The Phenom.
ReplyDeleteI think WWE doesn't want to talk about how Undertaker is anybody but The Undertaker. There is no Mark Callous to them.
ReplyDeleteWell that's a bit harsh.
ReplyDeleteReally?
ReplyDeleteI remember seeing the Cactus Jack stuff and I think they showed some Vader stuff after he left, but didn't realize they did that Austin too. Pretty funny.
ReplyDeleteI can't really see how this would further or better the angle. The "E" would kinds sorta take away from Taker's mystique a bit showing a clip of him from WCW as a mid-card specialist as Mean Mark Callous.
ReplyDeleteI'm an old school fan and loved WCW, showing clips like that of guys in their early days in other promotions sounds like a pretty sweet idea, I dig it (suckaaaaaaa!!!). Even this example with Heyman and Taker/Mean Mark is something I would've enjoyed. In this particular case though, it's not how the "E" rolls unfortunately.
Going off topic just a bit, its absolutely incredible how Vince owns pretty much the entire video library of mainstream American professional wrestling. Anything that was popular. It's just an amazing accomplishment. A freakin' endless money maker. I think, just for a laugh, when it becomes dirt cheap, he will buy TNA's library. Honestly, just for a shit and a giggle, and a fuck you for even thinking about thinking of trying. I think he would buy ROH's library as well, for totally different reasons, as some of his more recent and future players have a lot of video history from ROH. On the flip side though it absolutely SUCKS that pro wrestling is monopolized and that there is ZERO competition. History shows and proves that pro wrestling was at it's best at the height of competition and that competition was the root and catalyst of every boom era.
The 80's kicked so much ass with the AWA, NWA and WWF, is when I was a kid and first got hooked. And anybody who was a fan because of the 80's then got to witness the Monday Night Wars knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Never have I seem someone enter the ring with bubbles instead of pyro.
ReplyDeleteHey, these shitty ideas aren't going to book themselves.
ReplyDeleteAnd fuck you too.
Bitch.
- WWE Creative
Shall we just call you Miz now?
ReplyDeleteIt's like Rey Mysterio's mask. Anyone who watched WCW during that period saw his face after he was unmasked but to the WWE Universe Rey Mysterio was never unmasked. The same with the Undertaker, he was never anyone else except the Undertaker.
ReplyDeleteOnly Zuul.
ReplyDeleteHaha I thought you were joking. Of course bischoff did that.
ReplyDeleteLet me ask a question: Is Bo Dallas Bray Wyatt's brother?
ReplyDeleteOr at least mention their crazy HITC classic.
ReplyDeleteUntil the WWE allows them to say otherwise, the answer is "No." I don't think the WWE has to this day has ever acknowledged that Randy Savage and Lanny Poffo are brothers.
ReplyDeleteBecause he debuted as Texas Red (with Percy Pringle as his manager) against Bruiser Brody 5 years before Heyman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0lRWx3NMTg
ReplyDeleteAnd even if Heyman did bring him in, this would be even more idiotic than what was done at Wrestlemania and after.
They just did on the latest WM Rewind.
ReplyDeleteTook them about thirty years and the death of Randy Savage for them to do so.
ReplyDeleteMeh. What is the point of saying "Hey, the Genius and the Macho Man are brothers!"?
ReplyDeleteWhat's the point of acknowledging that the Undertaker and Mean Mark Callous are the same person?
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong with a glorified house show as a breather episode now and again. Sure, it makes for boring TV, but given SmackDown is the second string show, that's tolerable.
ReplyDeleteI liked Mean Mark, which made me like the Undertaker when he came to the WWF.
ReplyDeleteBecause HHH.
ReplyDelete- Scott Keith 9821 times on this blog.
"I had a quick thought that I wanted to share because NO ONE had mentioned it up until now"
ReplyDeleteThere might've been a reason for that ;)
I thought Taker's own match is the Casket Match. And he loses that far more often than he wins.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Mean Mark is Ted Dibiase's fake Undertaker?
ReplyDeleteWWE don't even acknowledge that Bray Wyatt is Husky Harris. They're not gonna acknowledge that Undertaker was ever anything against Undertaker
ReplyDeleteWhat really take away his mystique was that WrestleMania XXX was THE FIRST TIME EVER that Undertaker has been pinned 1-2-3 in the ring. Not just at WrestleMania but EVER. Of course, he's still undefeated in Casket Matches.
ReplyDeleteHe is most famous for his HITC matches, not random casket matches with Curtis Hughes and Mark Henry.
ReplyDeleteMotherpussbucket!
ReplyDeleteI had a quick thought I wanted to share because nobody has mentioned it until now: Why doesn't the WWE just make a CM Punk hologram like what was done with Tupac? Just use old footage of him and his promos and make it a hologram. Hell, he can even have matches! Just take ome old matches of his and hologram that shit up in the ring and have a wrestler wrestle around/with the hologram. Bryan would be perfect for this!
ReplyDeleteScott, you and me, we come from the same era. We were probably even born a year apart. It doesn't mean we think the same. I don't like your idea.
ReplyDeleteAlso, they should totally bring back The Black Scorpion gimmick for Cena.
Ironic thing is: In Paul Heyman's debut promo as Lesnar's agent, Paul Heyman actually said he took the Undertaker and made him into the Deadman (said the same thing about turning Steve Austin Stone Cold).
ReplyDeleteI'm not kidding. Look it up.
Yeah, and Heyman invented table matches, discovered a young kid called Terry Funk, and was the first guy to have the wrestlers fight outside the ring. He also invented promos, ladder matches and made Mick Foley.
ReplyDeleteWell, if they had known in December they were ending the streak, we would have gotten a different angle. As it was, I didn't mind it too much. Not what I would have hoped for, but all things considered, I thought it was okay.
ReplyDeleteThe point is not whether its accurate or inaccurate, the point is he said it on a live Monday night broadcast in 2002.
ReplyDeleteDon't kayfabe me, if it didn't happen in WWE, it never happened!
ReplyDeleteI'm OK with Jedi Punk.
ReplyDeleteThat's because they're two separate characters!
ReplyDeleteOf course, by saying that, I'm implying Husky Harris even had a "character".
I'm aware of that, but then I made an additional point that Heyman can talk a lot of shit. I understand what you meant, why can't you understand what I meant?
ReplyDeleteConsidering I'm sitting through Thunder from 1998 at the moment, I certainly agree.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know whether you were being sarcastic or not. My bad.
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, have they EVER shown Mean Mark footage?
ReplyDeleteOk, how about this? One good idea Heyman had was a night where everyone used their old gimmicks.
ReplyDeleteSo WWE should have a One Night card where you'd have Prototype vs Husky Harris, Terra Ryzin vs Daniel Wyatt, Skip Sheffield and Michael McGilllicutty vs Seven and Cody(with facemask), isaac Yankem DDS squashing Brett Majors...
I really wish they'd kill this Sheamus heel turn idea and instead let him and Barrett stiff the shit out of each other in a secondary title unification match.
ReplyDeleteExcept when Heyman brought in that female during the original Brock feud to claim that he'd had an affair with 'Mark' while his wife was pregnant, or something.
ReplyDeleteb/c at this very exact moment, taker has always been taker, with supernatural powers
ReplyDeleteanything that happened before this very exact moment - even in wwe itself - doesnt count
fail
/thread
Here's my random Undertaker question: What was supposed to happen if Stone Cold hadn't stopped Taker's "unholy wedding" to Stephanie? Paul Bearer declares they're married and ... Would it be legally binding? Was Steph going to fall under some spell? Would Taker's kiss have killed her? What was Taker's end-game there?
ReplyDeletehe also invented nova, which i'm pretty sure violates the rules of the space/time continuum
ReplyDelete"I await my kudos from Paul on Twitter."
ReplyDeletethey havent made that candy bar in years
Yes. In 2001 they released a single disc dvd bio on Taker. It was during the Bikertaker era and it's about as close to an out of character bio piece you'll ever get on Undertaker. On the dvd they showed some clips from WCW with Taker reflecting on his time there. Might of been one of if not the first WWF/WWE dvd to show WCW footage.
ReplyDeleteDogs and cats...living together...mass hysteria!
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's because they're worried WCW will sue....oh yeah.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget when Taker had Sara with him and she proceeded to call him "Mark" in nearly every promo.
ReplyDeleteWWE has done it even after WCW folded. When Brock Lesnar came back in 2002, they ran video packages of his 2002 run throughout one episode of RAW. Every single guy they showed him beating up in 2002 worked for TNA in 2012 .
ReplyDeleteIt'd make a great video package, but nobody who they care about would care.
ReplyDeleteErr there is plenty of footage he doesn't own in America.
ReplyDeleteI could see them giving Lana a heel stable and calling it the Foreign Legion: Rusev, Del Rio, Heel Sheamus...
ReplyDeleteMaybe to your childhood. It does nothing to damage a mostly retired old man.
ReplyDeleteOn the first day Vince created the WWF.
ReplyDeleteHis record seems similarly bad in Buried Alive matches.
ReplyDeleteThat's one reason I try to support TNA, though it may be a lost cause.
ReplyDeleteForming the Authority and making sure Daniel Bryan doesn't become champion.
ReplyDeleteI still laugh thinking about Michael Cole, maybe sometime between 2007 and 2009, saying, "It's been heavily debated whether or not the Undertaker is really alive or dead."
ReplyDeleteIf you're gonna have Batista beat Rollins by knockout -- it was just as clean as a Last Man Standing match -- why can't you just have him win by pinfall in the ring? That came off like a pointless and counterproductive attempt to "protect" Rollins.
ReplyDeleteBecause it's the WWE, this same company wouldn't acknowledge Undertaker and HHH already wrestled at WM 17 and countless other show in the 90s.
ReplyDeleteThere's probably a good bit he doesn't own, but I get your point. It's unfortunate that we have no real competitor to WWE, but I have to be honest: I have faith in Triple H and Stephanie having WWE's future in their hands.
ReplyDeleteIt's true....this man has no dick.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I watched Ghostbusters a few weeks ago and it was the first time I watched it and was sad.
ReplyDeleteHelp me Obi Punk Kenobi, you're our only hope.
ReplyDeleteNo you've got it all wrong, he invented super nova.
ReplyDeleteTaker wanted to have sex with Stephanie but had a very traditional upbringing and was taught to not have sex before marriage. So he had to marry Stephanie to be able to have sex with her guilt free. He knew Stephanie was the one he wanted to take his virginity and this was his plan to make that happen.
ReplyDeleteIt worked for Triple H
ReplyDeleteThey don't even want to talk about Kane and Daniel Bryan being buddies just a year ago. You think they would bring up things that happened a quarter century ago!?
ReplyDeleteWell HHH was far from a virgin before meeting Stephanie. He lost his virginity to Chyna after a truth or dare session with Shawn Micheals went horribly wrong.
ReplyDeleteI've actually thought about this concept before, but for a Halloween edition of Raw. Everyone comes out as their old gimmicks. HHH in fox hunting gear, Taker in his 1991 outfit, Kane in his 1997 duds, Foley as Mankind, Vince wears the 3 piece light blue suit, etc. Then, as a joke, they bring out Steve Austin as "Chilly McFreeze."
ReplyDeleteWhat?
ReplyDeleteThat Jeff Hardy match was hilarious. Undertaker destroys him, then "puts him over", by raising his hand.
ReplyDeleteThe worst UT squash, though, was against Kurt Angle at Fully Loaded 2000. He made Angle look like a complete loser.
Yep. They can't exactly erase his Booger Red/Bikertaker era, but they aren't gonna highlight it and they sure as fuck aren't going to mention that he was Dice Morgan or Mark Callous.
ReplyDeleteThe Undertaker is and always has been The Undertaker, an ethereal and mysterious zombie cowboy mortician.
Besides, that's his whole appeal where the streak is concerned. Wrestlemania is/was where mortals test their might against this thing that's bigger than being. You wanna wreck that by shoving it in people's faces that he's just another pro wrestler who stumbled upon the right gimmick for the sake of giving wrestling history nerds a boner?
And Kamala!
ReplyDeleteYou're putting WAY too much thought into this, Scott.
ReplyDeleteYeah, their target fanbase wasn't even alive when Mean Mark was in WCW. Hell, I'm 32, and I wasn't into wrestling at the time, I didn't start watching until I was 12.
ReplyDeleteIs that one they need to be so on-the-nose with, though? We didn't forget, they were teaming 9-10 months ago still.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. WWE is so awesome at their video packages that making one about their tag team and subsequent feud seems pretty great- and would easily bring a new viewer up to speed, most importantly- but part of me likes them leaving obvious things unsaid sometimes.
They're always trying to grow their fanbase, obviously, and definitely do market the show to a younger set- something that's been true throughout their history, even as the product became very adult-themed for awhile- but their target audience is still very much 18-to-49 males.
ReplyDeleteI very much doubt they'd avoid doing something like this because the kids don't care. I don't know what their reason is- it's probably as simple as "no one thought of it"- but that one doesn't make much sense to me.
Just as bad at survivor series 2000 when Angle was champ.
ReplyDeleteBut it worked because Hardy was nowhere near Taker's level.
ReplyDeleteI think the mere existence of the WWE Network suggests they care very much about the type of fan who'd "get" that video package.
ReplyDeleteI'd bet fairly heavily on one of these three reasons being why they didn't do anything like that:
1. No one thought of it.
2. It doesn't fit Taker's character.
3. They didn't want to make it too much Heyman v. Undertaker.
So, face Sheamus is a bit of a dick, steals people's cars, bullies them around and generally acts like a TV series bad guy.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, supposed heel Sheamus wins matches clean and looks for a legit fight.
Either we're disconnected from reality or WWE is, and honest to God, sometimes I'm not sure which is which.
Exactly - "The Undertaker" was never just some newbie learning his craft on the indy scene, he was always just this entity, this big guy from out in the desert that had magic powers that he used to thwart evil (or sometimes, good).
ReplyDeleteI still can't believe WCW had a giant guy with a good look who was agile in the ring like Mark Callous and thought "Let's job him out to Lex Luger." Of course, there's also the case of Master Blaster/Oz/Vinnie Vegas and The Diamond Studd pretty much being forgettable midcard fodder.
ReplyDeleteVince McMahon may have a big man fetish, but he's not stupid.
Ya know, making it a Halloween episode would really help to not break kayfabe.
ReplyDeleteOf course, some guys would really have to just wear old tights instead of going back to an entirely different gimmick (I don't think Kane should be Isaac Yankem, for instance, but it'd be fun just to see the old 1998 attire), but it'd still be a fun, refreshing change from the usual look.
Maybe Batista could 'roid back up for the night!
The hologram will replace the broomstick as the object a great wrestler can use to have a four or five star match, or at least:
ReplyDelete"He couldn't have a five-star match with CM Punk's Hologram!"
Jobbing him out to Luger was the correct decision.
ReplyDeleteOnly because Flair pawned the broomstick.
ReplyDeleteOr, maybe you don't have him wrestle Luger so soon and instead build him up as a monster, like they did with Vader, or like WWF did with the Undertaker.
ReplyDeleteI think it's because WWE is very protective of the Undertaker character. Like, you know how they referred to Booker T as a 5 time champ, even though all of them (I think) were WCW titles? Yeah, they don't do that with Taker, as far as WWE is concerned he never existed until he got to WWE. Frankly, I'm surprised they're not editing out Mean Mark WCW matches.
ReplyDeleteYoure asking alot...they didn't even acknowledge the Brock/Taker blood feud of 2003.
ReplyDeleteHis gimmick sucked. The only thing you can criticize WCW for is not coming up with the Taker gimmick. And it isn't even a fair criticism because the Taker gimmick was fucking stupid.
ReplyDeleteFucking stupid? I agree in principle, but the truckload of money they made off the streak says otherwise.
ReplyDeleteIf I jump off a building and live, it doesn't make it a smart idea.
ReplyDelete"because the Taker gimmick was fucking stupid."
ReplyDeleteI never thought of it since it's worked so well but in a vacuum it is fucking stupid.
Kane might be even fucking dumber
ReplyDeleteHow big of a building are we talking about? I once dove off a 3 story house into a pool...
ReplyDeleteActually, that wasn't too smart either.
It worked because Taker kept evolving and got better. Let's not pretend that "literal dead guy zombie mortician" is some genius gimmick idea.
ReplyDeleteIt worked because Taker kept evolving and got better, then got much, much worse, then got better.
ReplyDeleteFIFY.
Yea. If he's playing the same Deadman gimmick he did when he debuted, the gimmick would have been over long ago. As bad as Bike Taker was, I always thought that helped prolong the shelf life of Taker...gave him a few years away from the Deadman and rejuvenated the character when he went back to it
ReplyDeleteThe fact that he's still around after nearly 20 years is fucking astounding. I figured that gimmick would be dead within 6 months, or whenever Taker decided to kill him with a Tombstone.
ReplyDeleteYeah, like they're going to show clips of Taker's 1.3 Muta bladejob...
ReplyDeleteLove that match
ReplyDeleteIf you do it onto ome matresses, you could parlay that into three world title reigns.
ReplyDeleteBut did you react like some of the guys on camera at WrestleMania did?
ReplyDeleteSteve Austin as Otto Von Ruthless! (Only because he referenced it on his podcast this week.)
ReplyDeleteI bet Wigger Cena would get one hell of a face pop with Basic Thuganomics.
ReplyDeleteThen Randy Savage called 'Taker and said, "Hey, about Steph's virginitiy..."
ReplyDeleteTJ: Watching the Smoky Mountain collection on YouTube... He's announced as "Hollywood" Bob Holly, but the jacket says "Beautiful" Bob Holly.
ReplyDeleteOh Bob...
His gimmick was a big scary dude who was really agile. It's barely a gimmick. You can just as easily criticize WCW for not seeing potential when it was clearly there.
ReplyDeleteWCW barely got behind anything back then.
I remember as a kid thinking that the Undertaker would be gone within a year. And then, a year later, he was WWF Champion.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know shit as a kid.
Everyone knows HITC is HHH's match.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't believe me, ask HHH.
Yeah, they had Dusty, Ole etc.
ReplyDeleteWWF had guys like Pat Patterson and Terry Garvin who were always happy to get behind the young guys.
My favorite Brock match after his last one, and my favorite Taker match after the first HITC match.
ReplyDeletePut David Copperfield on the payroll!
ReplyDeleteDel Rio would probably get a kick out of re-creating AAA's big heel group.
ReplyDeleteHad he started fucking Missy Hyatt yet? Or was that later?
ReplyDeleteThe whole rant was new. He's never reviewed Clash IV before.
ReplyDeleteThat explains Kane/Bryan pretty well also...
ReplyDeleteThe fact he stole them days before a big match on a TV Special just to make them an opening match comedy duo shows how much he really needed them. And it got over, forcing us to endure years of "licking and whacking."
ReplyDeleteDidn't ECW call a show Season's Beatings, too?
ReplyDeletePoor Emma. Lucky Fandango.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I kinda thought the same thing, as a young fan back in the day. I always assumed Hulk would make a return to the company. Maybe the idea was to do so, until Bischoff have him the world?
ReplyDeleteI was not aware. I apologize wholeheartedly and unreservedly
ReplyDeleteWWE is just a theatrical show, nothing more...
ReplyDeletehttp://crowleysdfk.eu/czym-jest-naturalne-planowanie/