"Ongoing losses, operating failures, material misstatements warrant and require urgent executive management changes or a sale of the company"
I know, and people thought I was just freaking out over nothing when this TV deal thing broke last night. As Dave noted on the audio show last night, the TV industry basically gave a huge vote of no-confidence in WWE as both sports and entertainment. Vince has personally lost $350 million in a DAY. That's three Linda senate runs! Obviously there's a reason that they made sure to distance Hunter and Stephanie from the Network and TV deal negotiations.
WOWOWOWOWOWOWOW
ReplyDeleteTNA wins! Let's all celebrate the new #1.....
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, I am very curious to see how Vince and Co. plan on recovering from this. I'm betting they pull the plug on the WWE Network by year's end.
ReplyDeleteNot saying it is going to happen, but I wouldn't be shocked at all if we look back at this as the first step of WWE going the drain.
ReplyDeleteFirst step is bye bye WWE Network. They seriously WRECKED their company with it.
ReplyDeleteThey've put everything into the Network though, I don't see how they could possibly pull the plug on it.
ReplyDeleteWill this become a WCW type deal where a line of incompetent corporate execs get placed at the top of the company? I can't see the WWE succeeding without McMahon or his handpicked heirs in charge.
ReplyDeleteThey will never profit on it, ever. They need to cut their losses.
ReplyDeleteDixie and Janice Carter!
ReplyDeleteStock is still up 25% from its 1-year low. WWE started/helped/didn't try to stop a momentum trade until everything collapsed to a level still above where it was 7 months ago (closed 11.24 on 10/16).
ReplyDeleteHow did going public benefit anyone other than McMahons who sold their shares for profit? Losing WCW as legit competition was so awful for the industry as a whole, and freshening up/making new stars.
ReplyDeleteUntil the day that there's an official press conference, or what have you, announcing that Vince is gone and someone outside of the McMahon family is now in charge, I refuse to believe that anything is more than just a setback.
ReplyDeleteRemember, Vince invested a ton of money into the XFL and has managed to stay in business despite the laughing-stock disaster that was. Yes, there's a board that can remove Vince but isn't it filled with his hand-picked people? I freely admit ignorance on matters such as that.
Steph selling before the spike and collapse is looking like an insider trading investigation waiting to happen.
ReplyDeleteGoing public was the death of them as a wrestling company.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Yahoo (https://finance.yahoo.com/q/it?s=WWE+Insider+Transactions), Steph sold shares in January when the stock was around $16, on an uptrend but still well away from the $30+ peak.
ReplyDeleteOh ok.
ReplyDeleteDon't the McMahons still hold more than 50% of the voting shares in the company? How could they be removed or be forced to sell the company?
ReplyDeleteSo now the network will be mentioned in the same sentence as the WBF and the XFL? Also, I still maintain that with a TV deal the company stays in business. I think taking away PPVs on anything but the network was a dumb move and I also think it's screwing the wrestlers out of good payoffs, just look at the story from yesterday about the referees being disgruntled about pay.
ReplyDeleteNonononononono.
ReplyDeleteThey couldn't get a carrier deal for the Network, showing that the product was either very iffy for cable and satellite, or WWE was holding out hope for a beneficial deal that never emerged. Basically, they decide to operate their own network, and more than likely over-inflate the percentage of their fanbase that was willing to follow them there.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, I think that the wrestling business is quickly becoming a dinosaur as a form of entertainment. There is nothing they can do about that. I enjoy the product in all it's past and current forms, but the fans of the sport in general are going away. It's a combination of the emergence of UFC and the NFL as juggernauts. I've heard from former fans that now call it "that fake stuff", and prefer the reality of the UFC,.
I'm not willing to accept the death of wrestling at any time, but the writing appears to be taking shape on that wall.
I don't think they can be forced as such, but other investors have legal rights as I understand it. The bad pub of a huge chunk of stock getting sold due to non-confidence might be enough of a gun to their head to force a change. Just guessing.
ReplyDeleteIt's confusing, though. They got so much positive (and well-deserved) mainstream press over the launch of the network. I guess it was more that it was a well-executed idea more than it was a compelling actual product, huh?
ReplyDeleteTo my knowledge (and unless something has changed in 6 months), Vince McMahon is the majority shareholder of WWE with other McMahon family members holding a not insignificant amount of stock themselves (although Stephanie--moron that she is--sold off a large chunk of her stock at a price that is STILL BELOW the price of the share right now).
ReplyDeleteIF all of this is still true he can either ignore this until it blows over or in classic Vince McMahon fashion just give a giant middle finger and an offer of a cash buyout to any investors who doubt him.
In my professional opinion a good portion of shareholder outrage comes from the absolute morons who bought into WWE as a growth stock when it was near the $20 range and are now feeling fleeced. Those people were idiots anyways and everyone knows that. They didn't do their homework, they should have known what was coming in Q2 2014 but you can't outright call them idiots even if they've earned that.
I also agree largely with what others have concluded in the financial sector. This is make or break time for the network. They thought they needed 1m subscribers to break even domestically. That number now goes up to 1.3m. Maybe even 1.4m. Loading up Extreme Rules to make it a Wrestlemania caliber event is logical progression because up to now they're only gaining subscribers. If they start LOSING subscribers, then they are well and truly screwed.
Overall they're going to be fine and the stock isn't going to drop below 8. Probably. If they lose a good chunk of their subscriber base after Summerslam though, all bets are off.
On the other hand, I'm currently up $250 on my WWE investment last night.
ReplyDeleteI think people were impressed that WWE got in early in the changing dynamics of the cable and satellite world.
ReplyDeleteHere's a quick fix, bring back PPVs and take them off the network, then raise the price of the network, that way you get the money from the more casual fan who will order a PPV but doesn't necessarily want to watch Mantaur's greatest moments from Raw 1995, and money from the hardcore fan who will shell out a little more to see the 'Taur in action.
ReplyDeleteThat's a better way of saying what I was trying to say, yes.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Steph a moron for selling when she needed/wanted money? She got those shares for virtually nothing anyway.
ReplyDeleteDoing what you like in life is a good thing, too.
Much of the good press came from people who didn't know what they were talking about. There was all this talk of "Vince McMahon did what the NBA wishes they could do" and "Vince McMahon did it again" and "Vince McMahon is on the cutting edge of new media".
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile old metrics still rule the day on wall street. Profit analysis. Ratios. Quarterly reports. And Q2 2014 where they were going to have to make up for all those WM buys was going to look nasty compared to Q2 2013.
So one day people wake up to that reality and forget the theory and go back to old numbers and it looks like the sky was falling.
But I bet there were a lot of old money speculators who cleaned up on that meteoric stock rise from 9-10 to 25-28 and sold at just the right time.
Yeah, the legal rights to force a vote on the matter. That the McMahons would defeat.
ReplyDeleteInteresting, thank you.
ReplyDeleteAnd the birth of them as a sports entertainment company.
ReplyDeleteDixie on a distant Thursday: 'Well, Wade, I've got some bad news for you: you're capital G, double O, double N, double E: GONE'
ReplyDeleteYou can't un-ring that bell. Also bridges may have possibly been burned with the satellite companies. They're all in behind the network. It will succeed or the entire WWE business model will have to be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up.
ReplyDeleteThey still did 400K PPV buys for Wrestlemania a month and a half ago; plus the 600K plus that subscribed to the Network, I think it might be too soon to hit it with the dinosaur label.
ReplyDeleteInsider trading rules make it very difficult for them to "time the market".
ReplyDeleteAnd why would she care about maximizing value of a sale, when she can just get more shares/options any time she wants?
Apples to oranges. How many more shares are floated now compare to over 14 years ago?
ReplyDeleteShe sold in advance of a bubble. The reason given was that she needed cash to build her dream home. If that's true and she wasn't buying out some debt, she's an absolute moron of the highest order.
ReplyDeleteShe literally had inside information as to how the network was going to work before details were leaked to the public. She knew that it was going to be a huge positive at first, she also knew (or should have known and/or COULD have known) that the infrastructure was going to be strong and early adopters were going to be satisfied which was only going to fuel the bubble. She knew what the press reaction was going to be because part of her job is dealing with media.
She may not have known that the stock was going to go up to 28 but she had to know it was going to go up in a not insignificant amount. Making a sale in advance of a bubble for cash reasons when you KNOW the bubble is coming is just plain stupidity, I can't make that any clearer.
I was having this conversation about the changing face of cable on another board. We argued over how much content would cease to exist if everyone went to Netflix and Hulu and dumped cable. We talked about sports as the anchor that keeps some from ditching cable. One thing that I continue to hammer is that people are kidding themselves if they think that Netflix or Hulu are going to stay 10 bucks a month if they have to pay for more content to be produced directly for them (like House of Cards). If the existing cable model fails, you will see much less content.
ReplyDeleteHowever, we know corporate America finds a way. I think ultimately, rather than a hugely confusing mish mash of individual networks all trying to get you to pay 10 bucks or whatever for their content (whether it's AMC, USA, MTV, or whatever), we will see major cable and satellite companies launching their own streaming services like Netflix. You will be able to choose many of the same networks you currently watch on cable and content will continue to be produced. The only difference between this and current cable will be the ability to watch everything when you want. It is here that ultimately the WWE Network could find a platform as a streaming channel for a larger streaming provider. I know some will scoff at basically seeing cable migrate to a streaming service but I just don't see any other way that mainstream America will deal with it. Most Americans are simpy not prepared to try and figure out which services have which of their favorite shows and ultimately pay just as much if not more if individual channels started streaming as stand alone products. And content will simply not be produced if their isn't money to be made. Currently netflix and Hulu simply show the content that others produce (with a few exceptions). When those options cease to exist then they have to raise prices significantly to pay for content to be produced directly for them.
I don't have issues with the "sports entertainment" concept. I don't have inherent issues with them trying to extend their business model (movies, network, etc.). They're a global brand and need to innovate or die like everyone else. I'm not even upset with the PG conversion-- It's needed to attract strong advertisers, and helps with international expansion. However, I firmly believe that going public took control and, by extension, risk away from Vince. Vince grew the company to the 90s explosion with risk, and that's part of what makes him so successful. Once he was boxed in with going public, that was horrible.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Vince would just submit a written "No" vote or just stand on the conference table and dramatically turn his thumb from sideways to down?
ReplyDeleteMaybe Vince should have been a little more conservative with what he projected?
ReplyDeleteAs an entertainment/sports consumer, I desperately want the WWE Network to be successful. It's so envelope pushing that all entertainment/sports consumers should want it to strongly succeed. The positive effect across all major entertainment/sports companies would be so beneficial to us.
ReplyDeleteI want it to make it too. One of the reasons I doubt many would cut the cord is that streaming services for major sports are expensive and blackout local teams. I can't see paying 50 bucks a month for nhl, nba, mlb, and nfl. I can pay that for cable and get a bunch of other channels too. Plus streaming sports are very difficult to flip from game to game, which sports fans know is half the fun on a busy saturday of college football or during the nba playoffs.
ReplyDeleteThey can't be forced at all. If the McMahon family still has a majority interest (which a 10 minute search of google and wikipedia says they do) under normal corporate structure the board can't vote Vince out, he can instead force them out and only elect board members loyal to his interest (and since he's majority owner that "election" is not an election but a hand picking).
ReplyDeleteVince can't be seen as "ignoring" his other shareholders and other prominent and vocal board members (well a normal guy can't but Vince McMahon might literally give them the finger), but for all intents and purposes, yeah as long as he wants to ignore them he can do just that.
I don't think anyone believes Vince is getting ousted or anything stupid like that, but there clearly could be other changes like killing the movie division that might have to happen to quell these sorts of uprisings.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Which is scary given the current state of finances.
ReplyDeletepublic companies by their very nature are risk-averse. It's why your most innovative companies are always private and then once they innovate they have the big IPO to make the founders rich
ReplyDeleteTV numbers are way down from where they were at their peak. A lot of the fans that jumped on in the Attitude Era have grown up and opted for other means of entertainment. Those numbers will never come back unless they totally turn things upside down from a creative standpoint and generate some sort of media buzz. I just don't see another boom period coming.
ReplyDeleteRemember: buy LOW, sell HIGH
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying Vince could be forced out or forced to do anything, but if they say "Make some changes at the top or we're selling millions of dollars of stock and causing it to decline another $5" or whatever that would do, then I'm sure he would probably listen. At the end of day, Vince wants to make money.
ReplyDeleteWhile the network is groundbreaking and a breakthrough, the introductory presentation was so freaking awkward and painful. I wonder how that hindered things across consumers and the tv landscape.
ReplyDeleteI think he would get No tattooed on his butt and stand on the table and moon the board members voting against him.
ReplyDeleteIf you really did want to make Scott Steiner the world champion here, doing a 25 minute TV time draw here, then having him submit Flair in the WarGames on the way to a one-on-one match at Superbrawl where Scott beats Flair for the belt wouldn't be the worst way to go about doing it.
ReplyDeleteTJ: Imagine a Japanese version of Iron Mike Sharpe, only smaller, far less talented, and Japanese. Now imagine him pinning Ted Arcidi and thats pretty much what just happened in a midcard match in my TEW13 developmental fed. What the FUCK?
ReplyDeleteThe match also got a stellar 7 rating. Even with zero heat, thats pretty damn awful.
ReplyDeleteFire your booker?
ReplyDeleteJust got done watching the Taker Kurt match from No Way Out 06 and damn if that wasn't awesome. Going to watch Judgment Day 05 now.
ReplyDeleteYep, fire your booker.
ReplyDeleteIn Grandmaster Phunk's (the booker in question) defense he did book himself to take the fall in the semi-main in the best match of the evening against Kip "I'm in every fucking diary and I don't know why" Keenan.
ReplyDeleteSo Tiger Chung Lee pinned Caliber Winfield?
ReplyDeleteTaker in the workrate era.
ReplyDeleteWhat a upset.
ReplyDeleteYep the very beginning.
ReplyDeleteJust read that remastered Sailor Moon is set to debut on Hulu.
ReplyDeleteAbeyance must be furious.
Also this thread died extra early.
ReplyDeleteI would say he started that era in 2005 with Orton.
ReplyDeleteLet's talk Mikey.
ReplyDeleteSailor Moon is guilty pleasure .Is the My little pony of animes.
ReplyDeleteIt got hijacked by ANOTHER "WWE'S STOCK DIED!" post.
ReplyDeleteYep that is fair enough.
ReplyDeleteHe had three pretty good matches with him in that year.
ReplyDeleteTrying to crunch in as much wrestling as I can't tonight. Is that RoH-NJPW show tomorrow?
ReplyDeleteYou spelled Free! wrong
ReplyDeleteYes.
ReplyDeleteLiger Vs Cole
Nakamura vs Steen
Gonna be a birthday party tomorrow,not gonna watch.
Wow, Liger getting a title shot!?
ReplyDeleteYes,if this was 1995 Liger it would be cool,50 year old Jushin,not so much.
ReplyDeleteChrist, jobbing to Santino on SmackDown? The silver lining for Sandow is that it can't get any worse than that, right?
ReplyDeleteIt can.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've ever seen an unmasked Liger.
ReplyDeleteThere's pictures of him in the 80's.
ReplyDeleteI made it to Atlantis in Kingdom Hearts. How far into the game am I?
ReplyDeleteHalfway-ish, IIRC. Been a LONG time since I played.
ReplyDeleteCool. I really like the game so far.
ReplyDeleteIt's damn good, beat both 1 and 2, and have played a couple of the handhelds.
ReplyDeleteKH 2 score is one of the best I've heard.
ReplyDeleteThe 1.5 HD one I have for PS3 has two other games on it too. 2.5 comes out later this year, then 3 comes out for PS4/XB1.
ReplyDeleteMusic is awesome in 1. You're telling me 2's is better?! Wahoo!
ReplyDeleteAmazon is awesome. Used PS3 games for under $5. Why does anyone pay full price anymore?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I might get 1.5 and 2.5 down the road... I am letting a few games build up before I buy them.
ReplyDeleteThe dramatic weight of the first act with Roxas are carried by the score,it has these summer vacation nostalgia feeling.
ReplyDeleteNot a bad idea. Once I finish 1.5, I am going to play Mass Effect 2. Have you played the ME games?
ReplyDeleteNah... just never felt any interest in them. I'm an "old school RPG"/tactical/sports guy. With some oddball games here and there.
ReplyDeleteAny other RPG's for PS3 you'd recommend picking up?
ReplyDeleteI can buy 3 Ps2 games for 10.
ReplyDeleteI know for Ps2,check Persona 3 and 4
ReplyDeleteRelease?
ReplyDeleteKurt stalking Sharmell when he was married to Karen Jarrett is pretty damn dumb. Booking Angle this way after his feud with Michaels was even dumber.
ReplyDeleteAnd those 3 games were $150 combined a couple years ago. Crazy.
ReplyDeleteWasn't the angle that Angle wanted a "black woman"?
ReplyDeleteApparently she was a "gutter slut."
ReplyDeleteTigers-Red Sox for me tonight. A rain delay got Lester pulled from the game in what was a pretty good duel between he and Scherzer.
ReplyDeleteYeah,I have a 10 on 1 KOF collection,Sf and others one.
ReplyDelete(Thinks through my games...)
ReplyDeleteDragon Fantasy 1 and 2... they're on PSNetwork, and a nice Dragon Warrior throwback.
Tales of Graces: A little "kiddie" at times, but solid enough.
Rainbow Moon: Tactical RPG, also on PSNetwork. Solid, again even if it's possibly "kiddie". (Mainly the art/plot)
Valkyria Chronicles: Another Tactical RPG, and probably the best game of this short list. It's the least "RPG" of this group, but well worth playing.
(The Fallout games are also good, as are a couple others I'm not thinking of right now...)
And he liked "beastiality sex"... whatever in the fuck that had to do with the angle.
ReplyDeleteLA faces a true test next round when they take on a hockey team that actually KNOWS HOW TO FREAKING CLOSE.
ReplyDeleteHave you played Street Fighter EX3? That was the first game I got for PS2.
ReplyDeleteDURR HURR SCHERZER AN IDIOT FOR NOT TAKING MONEY AND RUNNING AND FUCK SCOTT BORASS
ReplyDeleteMight have to pick a couple of those up on Amazon. Thanks for writing it out for me.
ReplyDeleteWill do, thanks!
ReplyDeleteGuaranteed Blackhawks go up 3-0 in the series and it ends up at game 7.
ReplyDeletehe and i will have a blood feud over which of us has the correct way of life (all or none, him vs me), but then we find a common ground and find we can learn from one another, me how to be more aggressive and him to know when to ease up
ReplyDeleteAwesome storytelling and character,one may think is just another cliche filled game then turns around you start caring about them.
ReplyDeleteNever played the EX series.
ReplyDeleteI got uncomfortable. I also got tired of the show.
ReplyDeleteJust picked up Fallout 3 for $0.99 lol.
ReplyDeleteNi No Kuni is another GREAT JRPG. I started it but never got around to finishing. Really Pokemon-esque.
This will be my first viewing of bash 09. How is Orton-HHH.
ReplyDeleteLike every other Orton vs. HHH match, just stupider.
ReplyDeleteDat u Jay-Z?
ReplyDeleteI've not gotten to NNK yet... I might want to check my list soon.
ReplyDeleteHaven't played FF X or X-2. They worth getting for PS3?
ReplyDeleteMediocre just like the rest of the PPV.
ReplyDeleteIsn't Dixie Dynamite a pr0n star?
ReplyDeleteAngle was in pretty cringeworthy angle toward the end.
ReplyDelete10's fine, although it's starting to creep into "overrated" status IMO. 10-2 is fan service bullshit with a mediocre game under.
ReplyDeleteHow WWE got away with the whole "I don't like black people" thing is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteMight just pass on the HD then. I have X for PS2 but never played it. I am about 3 hours into IX as well so I have to finish that one, too.
ReplyDeleteX has a horrific dub but is a good pure RPG. X-2 is a joke for too many reasons to list here.
ReplyDeleteOr Vince saying the N word on PPV.
ReplyDeleteIWGP TITLE:
ReplyDeleteStyles (c) vs. Elgin in their third encounter.
One of my favorite rants ever. I first discovered Scott's stuff online shortly after my father passed, & the timing was perfect. Had tons of stuff to run through , remember, & laugh my head off at during a time when I really needed some good laughs. The bit about The Clash jobbers really brought me back to that place. I remember where I was sitting, reading it shortly after getting home from work, and having tears in my eyes from laughing so hard at that sidebar about The Adulterer
ReplyDeleteI was a huge Orton mark at this time. I was outta town for this show though so I figured I'd watch. The Rey-Jericho match was awesome. Then just skipped to this match now.
ReplyDeleteAwesome reference.
ReplyDeleteIf Vince McMahon was calling the Kings/Ducks game he would have busted out "this is a COMPLETE DEBACLE!" ages ago.
ReplyDeleteWait, so Ranger Ross is Gary Buseys character from black sheep?
ReplyDeleteThe HD remaster is the international version of both games (i.e. extra content if you only have the U.S. PS2 versions) but probably isn't necessary since you have FFX for the PS2.
ReplyDeleteShortish version: Try X since you have it if you like RPGs; try X-2 if you want dynamic combat, liked the world of X, and won't be too frustrated by silliness.
Loved the story (aside from the, at times, too sappy romance)/characters (the main character can be trying)/setting/music of X when it came out; combat is turn-based (meaning you can take forever to decide what to do and the enemy won't attack you) that isn't too difficult aside from a few difficulty spikes. The sphere grid allows customization of character stats and is fun if you are a completist but can be frustrating as you can run out of certain spheres and be trapped behind locks until you reach certain points of the game.
X-2 has plenty to criticize, with several dumbly annoying characters and lots of WWE style humor (e.g. repeated "poopie" references, lots of skin on the all female main cast and one of the first villains). Main villain is disappointing, and the overall story is weaker because it is more about a world in transition from the effects of X rather than the more epic story of X; some of the sidequests are worthwhile and help flesh out Spira. Much of the game is optional, so you can blow through it in fewer than 10 hours if you only do the required missions. On the plus side, combat is dynamic, as you can chain attacks together, staggering enemies such that, if done properly, they can never attack. Dress spheres (job system) are a lot of fun, particularly changing in the middle of battle. The game is lighter than X and allows more freedom in determining the order in which missions are completed, whereas X was much more linear. And if the story is really bothering you, at least most of the cutscenes can be skipped (unlike in X).
Ironically by the time Scott finally get did the belt, the promotion was in such disarray that he was able to secure a US Title run and monster heel push for his brother.
ReplyDeleteBut you're right, this is shit compared the the 3 Stages at NWO 01
ReplyDeleteI googled Ranger Ross and he apparently made a shoot. Bayless you need to find that one and review it.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why people were so befuddled by this after he went after Stephanie McMahon years earlier. Aggressive Kurt acting aggressive while Dorky Kurt acted dorky is a natural character progression.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the review. I'm excited to see it.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite line from any Hogan promo.
ReplyDeleteGoing after Steph was well built, felt "natural", and other than the poor finish, was a solid storyline.
ReplyDeleteGoing after Sharmell was just... offensive. Not THAT he did it, but HOW he did it. Guttersluts? Beastiality sex? That's Jericho or Rock slamming some poor Diva verbally, NOT Angle going after someone.
For reasons unknown the PA system at the Anaheim/LA game just played Bubba Ray Dudley's singles theme.
ReplyDeleteForgettable show.
ReplyDeleteOh it's true.
ReplyDeleteYes it is, never buy a used PSP though.
ReplyDeleteHalfway, have fun with Ursula 2, never beat her yet, and I'm the the original PS2 version.
ReplyDeleteGrrrrrrr!
ReplyDeleteI'll say.
ReplyDeleteHa.
ReplyDeleteWhen will it end?
ReplyDeleteI just watched this on WWE Network the other day and you are 100% right about the finish. Steiner is PLAYING TO THE F*CKING CROWD as Capetta counts down from 15 seconds. I know Steiner isn't a brain surgeon but you have to be pretty much on par with a tree sloth's IQ to pull that shit. As much as I loved the late 80's NWA and early 90's WCW...I HATE retarded Dusty finishes like this.
ReplyDeleteWhere is this list at?? I remember reading it back in the day and literally asphyxiating myself with laughter...please tell me it still exists somewhere??
ReplyDeleteNevermind, I found it. Need to find an oxygen mask before I start reading it again.
ReplyDeleteThey missed the funny part of the press conference where Paul E. ends by saying "Thank you ladies and gentlemen, you can all go to hell."
ReplyDeleteThe three-way not being that great: it's not a secret anymore.
ReplyDelete