Question: why does Ricky Steamboat not have the same love for the WM3 Savage match everyone else seems to have? I recently listened to the Austin podcast with Regal, and they alluded to this. I feel like I've heard this before, but no explanation. It may be so personal to Ricky, no one outside of the business knows.
Thanks, and tell your daughter she's one tough kid!
jay
I expect her to make a miraculous return to the Royal Rumble 3 weeks ahead of schedule.
As for Ricky, the issue was more with Regal not liking the match because he's a person who believes very strongly in the art of working a match as it happens, whereas Steamboat and Savage literally sat there and planned out the match move by move. Regal and Austin strongly disagree with that philosophy, and so watching that match as professionals would be a very different thing for them than for us.
Santana wrote in his book that he had the same problem with Savage, as he wanted to make sure he had certain spots in their matches together.
ReplyDeleteWrestlers have a thing with how they work their matches. If they don't get to work it exactly the way they want it breeds resentment.
ReplyDeleteTake Bret Hart and Ric Flair for example. Neither man got to wrestle the match they wanted against each other and neither looks back fondly on their series of title bouts. Meanwhile, the match where Bret won the belt was ****1/2 and their Iron Man was about the same. Sometimes the talent is just there to make magic, regardless of how you happened to plan things out.
Other than DDP and Savage were there any other prominent wrestlers to intricately map out their matches to such a degree?
ReplyDeleteI thought all matches were planned out.
ReplyDeleteI'm such a casual.
Hogan did it with Warrior.
ReplyDeleteI meant regularly.
ReplyDeleteWell honestly Hogans matches were pretty paint-by numbers.
ReplyDeleteI remember seeing him do the same cage match with Bossman in three different venues.
Steamboat says as much in an RF shoot. He greatly prefers his matches with Flair where they'd go over the finish and then it was 'see you in the ring.
ReplyDeleteI liked Cornette's story where back in the kayfab days guys didn't know each other half the time. Eddie Gilbert would lock up, say 'hi, I'm Eddie. Take my head'.
ReplyDeletethat doesnt at all answer the question about steamboat
ReplyDeletethank you for actually answering the question
ReplyDelete"Hogan's matches were paint-by numbers"
ReplyDeletespecifically red and yellow paint, BROTHER
Clearly Steamboat feels the same way Regal does. Given I don't know Ricky Steamboat I can only answer based on what I heard on the podcast.
ReplyDeleteAs a fan, which is for whom the matches are being made, does it really matter whether the match was choreographed or called on the fly? If a match is universally loved by smarts and marks alike, why would anyone be ashamed with how it was put together?
ReplyDeleteDammit, now I'm going to have to rescind my original rating of ***** for that one and take it down to ***1/4.
ReplyDeleteI think anyone could have reasonably drawn that from Scott's answer
ReplyDeleteMatt Hardy
ReplyDeleteIf we look at wrestling as an artform, I can understand it. I don't necessarily agree, but I get it.
ReplyDeleteThat was such an important match for them both that I don't blame them. If it was an episode of Superstars, I'd ask what's the point but this was their shot at the big-time. So why chance it?
ReplyDeleteYou've been crusty lately, turn that frown upside down.
ReplyDeleteI think it makes a lot of sense, if you're judging wrestling as an art. It isn't that important to me personally, but I can see why it would be.
ReplyDeleteNeither guy particularly cared for the other, neither guy was happy with their matches, and they still went out and had two great matches. Amazing.
ReplyDeleteDDP and Savage are the only two that come to mind. No wonder they had great matches, given they both had the same philosophy when it comes to working matches.
ReplyDeleteIt's not so much about a match that everyone loved after the fact.
ReplyDeleteIt's about the variable nature of the business. Who says tomorrow night a different group of fans down the road will love the same match? Maybe you have a heckler. Maybe they want the face heel and the heel face. Maybe they were in town at the last show and have already seen it.
Improv is the nature of the business and the best performers could and can go with what a crowd gives them.
He says that about dory funk jr.
ReplyDeleteA great match is a great match, regardless of how much planning goes on beforehand. Savage and Hogan both got great matches out of Warrior. Who thinks Flair and Savage could've made it up on the fly and said the same?
ReplyDeleteHaving your own philosophy, style and preference is fine obviously but this crapping on other greats who have amazing matches because their style is different is very grating to me. I love regal but come on... Your "as it happens" style hasn't lead to a match that gets half as much talk as steamboat savage. So maybe they were on to something
ReplyDeleteAs a fan, no. In fact we wouldn't know the difference one way or the other.
ReplyDeleteIt falls into the tastes of wrestlers and how they were trained and to be honest if they get bored or not. Like anything else you get tired of doing the same things.
Also, as bramma said below what happens when you get to a crowd that doesn't respond to what you are doing? Do you stay with it or call an audible?
In your opinion could Flair have made up a great match with Warrior on the fly?
ReplyDeleteFuck no.
ReplyDeleteFlair from 89-92 absolutely could have gotten at the very least a good match out of Warrior, and probably a great one.
ReplyDeleteSo, out of curiosity, what was Bret Hart's philosophy? He strikes me as improv guy, but I'm not sure.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. He complained in his book that when he worked with Flair he wanted to call the spots because Flair's made no sense in the context of the match.
ReplyDeleteBret liked to plan out more than flair
ReplyDeleteFlair in his book said that Hart did the same match every night.
ReplyDeleteRic, uh, he might want to look in the mirror rather than just snort powder off of it.
ReplyDeleteSavage had far more great matches than Regal by planning them out. As much as I love Austin his matches with Taker were largely not very good to ok at best. Compare them to a much older Taker scripting his Mania matches. Austin could've done similarly good stuff with Taker by planning the match I would think.
ReplyDeleteFlair could've gotten a solid big man match out of Warrior but not a 4-5 star match on the fly. IMO
ReplyDeleteYou seem to forget just how limited Warrior was. He made Luger look like Lou Thesz. He basically worked the Road Warrior powerlifting style, but without the added flair the LOD added (high spots, thunderous legs and elbows, etc.). Was basically shoulder tackles, press slams, arm twists and the splash, without a massive amount of continuity.
ReplyDeleteYou couldn't do a great Warrior match on the fly. Way too limited. You had to plan it out. With Hogan, they planned out the psychology more than anything, and it worked. With Savage, they planned out in a style Warrior had never worked and pulled off something huge.
ReplyDeletePut your hand out to the right, put your hand out to the left and put your hand down the middle, BROTHER
ReplyDeleteBuck Nasty....did you get those Karate Slippers?
ReplyDeleteThe match where Bret won the Belt was nowhere near ****1/2. MAYBE ***1/2
ReplyDeleteHogan planned out the good matches, like Warrior and Savage. I'm guessing he planned out more of his Japan matches, where he was known for being a lot better worker. The rest were, as said, paint by number in various shades of red and yellow.
ReplyDeleteIn a shoot, Ricky was asked about his five star matches with Flair and Savage, and how drastically different they were in the preparation. Savage had him go line by line in planning this thing out... whereas Flair said something along the lines of, "Let's go out there and do it... maybe throw in some new stuff."
ReplyDeleteSteamboat didn't come out and say it, but it was strongly implied that he liked working with Flair better.
Look at it from the "craft" standpoint of the worker. If you can go out there and wing it... I think it speaks more to them personally as workers.
As the guy watching it on TV, I don't care how it's set up.
The house show title switch was a decent match, if only because the two of them were such good workers, but there was really not much reason to go overboard with it.
ReplyDeleteWrestling as art can also be taken both ways. Actors are artists who go take after take.
ReplyDeleteI think the main point still is: the talent themselves liking a match doesn't seem be a necessity for it being good (or great).
ReplyDeleteHBK said that Hart ran the same spots and if you tried to vary it would piss him off.
ReplyDeleteI've always been annoyed at this little bit of snobbery in the wrestling community. Who cares as long as the match is good? I heard Hogan and Warrior rehearsed the WM6 match. Would you have preferred they went out and worked it?
ReplyDeleteLook at it from the worker's standpoint though. Bret obviously takes the stuff very seriously. It's pretty much his entire life. He also knows what he's doing and has a vast body of work to back that up. So if he calls something in the ring, that he knows works, he'd be a bit pissed if someone tried to change things up on him.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason, I'm reminded of Shawn's temper tantrum in the match vs. Mankind at Mind Games.
ReplyDeleteHart's matches were far more varied than Flair's. It's not even close.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the fans really care. I know I don't. I just care about the end result. If it's good/entertaining, I don't care about the means they used in order to yield the result.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like it's just pro wrestlers being elitists. Freggin' smarks.
Couldn't that also be said about Flair, though? Say what you will about those spots of his, but they always got a reaction.
ReplyDeleteWasn't the temper tantrum a work and only in there as a nod to the smarts following the legit one he had against Vader at SummerSlam? They were in Philly for Mind Games after all.
ReplyDeleteFor an example of what happens when guys can't improv:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI8267jzicc
Absolutely. You could say it about most of the guys that have "their" style of match.
ReplyDeleteThat was a work.
ReplyDeleteThere are matches or sequences that *look* choreographed, and that just kills it for me. (Ultimo Dragon is probably the "made" worker who tends to be the worst at this, and it's a reason why I really don't care for him). Steamboat and Savage, and Savage in general, did not fall into that trap. So as a mere fan, I'm just fine with the end result.
ReplyDeleteYes, the Mind Games spot was a work. But he'd had all kinds of temper tantrums throughout '96. One with Vader, one with Davey Boy, one at WM12 with a photographer...
ReplyDeleteIt has nothing to do with if the fans care. It wrestler preference. That being said find it funny when fans get bent out of shape because a wrestler plans his match out beforehand.
ReplyDeleteIn Hip Hop music you are not considered a great MC f you can't freestyle (make up rhymes on the spot) Eminem is great at this. You can't you will still be considered good but not great by the 'experts' that nitpick. If I am a rapper (specifically a battle rapper) I would care but as a music fan I don't. I just wanted to hear great music.
That is where the issue comes in I guess. Two experience workers in a match and they both want to dictate the flow of that match.
ReplyDeleteOh, I'd never heard that before. Quite an interesting "spot" to insert into a match.
ReplyDeleteMick and Shawn were trolling the smart fans.
ReplyDeleteHBK said that once you get something established you play with it a little bit.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know that. That's hilarious.
ReplyDeleteThey would have been those bland matches he had with big stiffs like Road Warrior Hawk and Nikita Koloff.
ReplyDeleteFlair would have bounced like a pinball for them.
Flair criticising anyone for having the same match is like Paul Heyman criticizing someone for poor financial management.
ReplyDelete"when he worked with Flair he wanted to call the spots because Flair's made no sense in the context of the match."
ReplyDeletebret: "irish whip, reversal"
flair: "no no no, pull my pants down, and let me hump the turnbuckle"
didnt know that carlos santana and fred savage worked together
ReplyDeleteIt would definitely be a tough situation, given both guys are probably something of control freaks and are obviously very good at what they do.
ReplyDeleteBut to be fair, doesn't every guy have his spots he likes to do. I don't know about being pissed if someone varied from them, but it would probably irritate a guy, anyway.
ReplyDeleteLike I mentioned before, Shawn's thing was once you get spots like the 5 Moves of Doom established you can play with them. Bret wouldn't allow this to happen.
ReplyDeleteThe wrestlers have different criteria than the fans. That's no different from any other art form.
ReplyDeleteI only have issues if the fans themselves make those criticisms.
What about his temper tantrum vs. Vader?
ReplyDeleteBret did a combination. He liked to plan out spots -- reference him and Austin talking about their WM13 match or the Ironman match with Shawn -- but improv to "fill in the gaps" between the major stuff.
ReplyDeleteHe also tried to vary the matches to fit the opponent.