Scott, two questions that occurred to me:
Thank you in advance,
You Lee Marshall-ed me?
1. Adam Rose was a case where the guy in the role isn't great in the ring to say the least and wasn't developing any further in his old gimmick, so I think they just got caught up in the excitement at him actually getting over and then sent him up. That being said, he was literally only on NXT twice with the Rose gimmick before they brought him in, and both times they tweaked aspects of the entrance. So really it never even had a chance to mature before the audience that it was intended for in the first place. He's too old to keep hanging around developmental, so when they inevitably pull the plug on him on RAW that will likely be all for the character and the person, unfortunately. But hey, they tried. In the other cases, the disconnect is more between NXT's bookers and the soap opera writers of the main roster who don't understand how to get anyone over unless it's a Vince pet project like Roman Reigns. They're almost better off going back to the old OVW system of developing guys as generic wrestlers down there and then letting the monkeys in creative come up with the gimmicks when they're called up, rather than spending a year honing a character like Paige and then doing everything the complete opposite when she gets to the main roster.
2. Charlotte is a total freak of nature in a good way, but I wouldn't get too excited about the state of women's wrestling just yet.
Hard to believe that a Russell Brand ripoff accompanied by a guy dressed as a cheeseburger isn't getting over. The solution is obviously to have Michael Cole laugh even harder.
ReplyDeleteThat 13 minute six woman match that happened last night on NXT would never happen on Raw.
ReplyDeleteThe Shield is an interesting case in the sense that none of the men were really using their developmental gimmicks besides the names they were given. The Shield gimmick was given to them when they came to the main roster and they had the rocket strapped to their backs. Cesaro is a rare current example of someone who was given time to get over. Until he was placed in the Real Americans and started doing the big swing Cesaro was considered a "flop." So maybe there's hope for some of the other "flops." The main problem is that creative could only get someone over if they are allowed to put a rocket on someone's back, i.e. The Shield and Bray Wyatt; but they have little ability to build solid midcard talent over the long term. That was very apparent in yesterday's cuts where even talent who regularly appear on TV and house shows weren't immune (R.I.P. 3MB). The WWE should really take a look at creative's ability to get talent over.
ReplyDeleteAs for Charlotte, from what I hear her match last night at the NXT tapings stunk. Nattie deserves more credit for their match a few weeks ago than she was given.
That's pretty much the crux of it, developmental is a booked wrestling territory and WWE is an episodic TV show. As to why Vince wouldn't notice that developmental is far more coherent, fuck if I know.
ReplyDeleteAdam Rose only appealed to the Full Sail crowd. He was a mediocre wrestler who caught on with a certain crowd. His flop shouldn't surprise anyone
ReplyDeleteThe WWE made it clear who the real star of 3MB was.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that Scott said something interesting about Gotch, in that it's a gimmick that gets over in NXT that would die on Raw.
ReplyDeleteThat's a really important distinction that will need to be made by those in charge going into the future. The type of people who go to the NXT tapings are more your hardcore, smarky fans that you may or may not get at Raw.
I honestly think Rose is one of those gimmicks that was doomed to fail in the big leagues. It at least needed modification; the NXT shows are small, and that entrance looked grandiose there. The same entrance looked small-time on Raw because instead of a crowd, it looks like a smaller entourage.
Were I in charge, I'd have at least 100 people come out with him. Actually, I'd offer fans the opportunity to do it, and charge extra. And they'd crowd surf him all the way down to the ring, and crowd surf him back again. That would be the running gag - you'd never see him walking anywhere - even backstage he'd be getting crowdsurfed, even to catering.
Storm hates smarks with a passion. I think your previous post is a reason why. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd women's wrestling CAN get over. It's like anything else in wrestling, depends on what the powers to be want to do with it. Was watching Summerslam 1994 and during the brief time that Vince pushed Alundra Blayze, she was incredibly over and popped HUGE for her win over Nakano.
ReplyDeleteRose spent over 4 years in developmental before getting called up. He still stinks in the ring and this gimmick was the only reason he even got called up. His failure does not mean all that much in the long run because quite frankly, he isn't that good
ReplyDeleteI completely admit WCW 2000 was one of, if not the worst years in the history of that company and it deserves plenty of critcism, but I would prefer we stick to the actual facts and not make stuff up. There was plenty of stupid "real" stuff that happened in WCW.
ReplyDeleteConsidering that Rose, Paige, Emma, and Dallas are the first group to be brought up from the current version of NXT (I consider previous call-ups more FCW than NXT) I think they are starting to realize that the Full Sail gimmicks would not necessarily work on the main stage without modification.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly Emma is not considered a "flop" even though a lot of people criticize her association of Santino, that association at least gave her a chance to ease herself with the audience.
Actually I think it's a problem with booking, not "writing." Introducing Rose by giving him Zeb as a foil looks good on paper...until you remember that "racist old guy who hates foreigners" is a FACE character to a big chunk of your audience, and he/Swagger aren't allowed to do things in the ring to get heel heat otherwise. Rose was doomed the second they asked the Republicans in the crowd to cheer for him over Zeb.
ReplyDeleteRose should have debuted during the European tour with an audience that is more likely to get the party lifestyle that the Adam Rose character espouses.
ReplyDeletePaige might flop, but if she does it will be because they keep booking her to get the crap beat out of her before hitting one or two moves to win every match.
ReplyDeleteIs it a different discussion because it does speak to the differences between NXT and Raw.
ReplyDeleteI don't think anything really would have saved that gimmick, save for *maybe* debuting him as a heel instead of a face. Otherwise it's got a shelf life of a month, tops.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't write it during his "serious for a minute" phases.
ReplyDeleteIt's a midcard cooldown gimmick similar to Brodus Clay. It has its place but it's not a main event gimmick. Although the way he treated Vickie Guerrero was heelish but since its Vickie who cares.
ReplyDeleteToo bad, because there's probably room in wrestling for "idiot rock god." The WWE loves ripping off old comedy, they could have a field day with This is Spinal Tap related humor.
ReplyDeleteThat's a pretty major writing issue, when you can't align your characters properly. They should have never belittled whiteboard guy.
ReplyDeleteZeb's writing is a disaster, there's a Russian running around and he can't be bothered.
To followup on my previous post about Storm not getting his stories accurate...I also went back and looked up the story of Booker T vs. Mike Awesome in the Ambulance match. The match took place on 5/29/00. Booker T as GI Bro makes his entrance first and cuts a promo. Then Awesome makes his entrance, driving the ambulance into the arena. How Awesome can be in the ring while Storm and Booker are in the back talking to Ferrara is beyond my simple brain's comprehension. So clearly this conversation that Storm had with Booker is completely made up. Couldn't have happened.
ReplyDeleteSo again, plenty of stuff to bash WCW about without the need for making stories up.
That's an easy way to turn them face but that's a discussion for later.
ReplyDeleteI agree her fluke BS is not the way to go. She should be an aggressive arrogant heel. She's just got that look about her.
ReplyDeleteYeah, what IS up with that? Talk about fish in a barrel.
ReplyDeleteThey fucked that up right from her debut. Instead of coming out to play some little fan girl awed by AJ, she should have forcefully challenged her for the title. Coupled with the fact that she's so young, she looks like she's in over her head right now.
ReplyDeleteMidcard gimmicks are fine.
ReplyDelete"We clearly see that Itchy hits the same rib twice, but it makes different noises. Are we to believe this is a magical ribs xylophone???"
ReplyDeleteAh, so this is the "booking is things I like, writing is things I don't" distinction.
ReplyDeleteThe people booking the NXT Divas photoshoot did a better job booking Paige than the Raw writers. They had her making nasty faces at Lana and popping balloons. That's the Paige that should be on Raw. After looking at those pictures I wanted to see a Paige-Lana feud, two sour personalities clashing.
ReplyDeletePart of me is thinking they did that so she could feud with AJ, who is an established heel. However, AJ doesn't look like she is coming back soon so now this gimmick is just cramping on Paige's style.
ReplyDeleteI agree but there's this expectation that if a gimmick doesn't transcend the midcard it's considered a "flop." There's no upward mobility anymore. If you don't have the rocket strapped to your back then you are JTTS. There are no imbetween anymore.
ReplyDeleteNice reference. I also failed to mentioned Storm didn't debut with WCW until Nitro on 6/19/00. It makes me wonder how much of the other stuff I've read on his blog is a fabrication of lies.
ReplyDeleteI like Paige as a face just fine, given that she's new and just knocked off a long running heel champion. I think she should get some time as a face who wins because she's better than everyone else to get the crowd behind her, then slowly turn into an arrogant heel. But I really don't think such a thin division needs to go from one arrogant heel to the next so quickly.
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing wrong with being a JTTS.
ReplyDeleteI don’t get why people care about women’s wrestling, or women’s sports in general (although I don’t hear much about that from legit sports fans generally, it seems to be more of a wrestling fan thing.)
ReplyDeleteIt’s great that women’s sports exist. It encourages fitness, and they learn all of
the same leadership and teamwork skills that men learn, and that’s great.
But as a fan watching, I don’t understand why you would specifically want to see women. Who cares?
Well if they're going to have Divas matches, wouldn't you rather they be good ones?
ReplyDeleteI think that was the case. They knew AJ was going on a break but I get the impression that they thought it would only last a month so they had her feuding with Tamina with the expectation AJ would be next. When it became clear that AJ's break would be longer than expected they turned another diva, Alicia Fox, into an AJ clone.
ReplyDeleteThe writers have no idea how to book on a fly
Who knows, maybe a woman watching might want to see women competitors.
ReplyDeleteNo but if you have a roster of divided into main eventers and JTTS with few real midcarders there's a problem.
ReplyDeleteEh I don't think she's a face. She just has that heel look and style to her. Some people just fit roles more naturally. Of course, I could be wrong. Not sure how she sounds on the mic. Then again, I'd love her to see her as the first "Paul Heyman Girl," so that wouldn't matter. But you are right, they don't have a good face foil available so it's obviously not happening.
ReplyDeleteEither way, what they are doing now isn't working.
If you want to get an average sized guy over in the wwe, who sucks in the ring, you better come up with one amazing gimmick.
ReplyDeleteDoing a Russell Brand impression at least two years after that meant something with a tiny entourage and booking him as a face the god awful announcers think is cool.
Anyone with a fucking clue would tell Vince 1)its a dumb gimmick so do something else or 2) if we have to run this crap we need to at minimum triple his entourage, and for his debut maybe even go way bigger. Also pick a catchier techno song. And for god sakes the announcers have to act like the guy is an asshole. "Who is this clown" "Who does this guy think he is"etc etc. Vince you're announcers are jerk offs you couldn't get anything over so having them dance and laugh two minutes after a guy shows up is a kiss of death.
That and they obviously don't care as much as about the women.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather they didn't have them at all. Could you imagine if they stopped an nba game to bring out two womens teams to play for 5 minutes?
ReplyDeleteWIth the belt, she doesn't need a whole lot of personality from the beginning. She can be the new girl who's really good at wrestling and gets cheered because she's beating heels like Alicia Fox or Aksana.
ReplyDelete(but the Wyatt Family has been stuck in a death feud with Cena after a promising start,)
ReplyDeleteA year ago they were stuck in an awful feud with Kane that had no crowd heat. Now they're getting mega-heat feuding with Cena. Yeah, I can see how they're dead...
I'm sure 99% of women who watch the wwe do it for the big star men wrestlers like anyone else.
ReplyDeletelololololololol
ReplyDeleteYeah, fuck all that time they wasted on Trish, Mickie, and Lita.
ReplyDeleteFair enough, if only because they have no one their to play the face foil.
ReplyDeleteMerchandise.
ReplyDeleteExactly! Who cares? Please Vince, pull the plug on this shit.
ReplyDelete...not Russian...
ReplyDeleteOh, I agree. That was one of the only bright spots of death-throes-era WCW, there were some talented dudes that got a chance to shine who wouldn't have gotten a sniff even a year before that. I really dug Storm in WCW.
ReplyDeleteBut this piece from Storm being more about WCW's incompetency in simply producing a television show, that's one thing you can rarely fault WWE on. Their creative process might often leave us bewildered but not the nuts and bolts of actually producing a show.
Hornswoggle, right? I bet it's Hornswoggle.
ReplyDeleteThe weirdest thing is that they didn't even bother writing Jinder & McIntyre off so Slater could go back to the "One Man Rock Band" nickname he was using in NXT. Admittedly, it's kind of a doofy nickname, but Heath Slater's a doofy guy. This stable was all over the shows for how long, and suddenly without explanation he's just a ginger who hangs around with a midget.
More to the point, they don't really have ANY foil. Until some of the other NXT girls come up there's no one who can take the belt off of her, so you might as well add some length to her heat by putting off the heel turn. Plus heels who were faces first usually have better heat.
ReplyDeleteWell that's true, but hopefully it doesn't kill her character altogether.
ReplyDeleteMostly tweens and teens dreaming of their imaginary BF Cena or Orton. And Punk.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I think the only thing that's going to kill her character is if they keep booking her like a little girl who keeps fluking her way to wins. Which will probably happen.
ReplyDeleteYeah three calendar pin up models, one whose gimmick was showing her thong, and the other one who got over by pretending to lick a pussy and the 3rd one was over because she was a perfect 10. What would we have ever done without all that greatness.
ReplyDeleteThe best to come of any of that was Chris Hyatte getting pranked.
Maybe it's just me, but there's something...well, lame, about a character that rips off a celebrity. Actually, it's not even a celebrity-it's a character that the celebrity played in two movies. Are we to assume that he's a guy who liked the movies so much that he bases himself off the character, albeit a PG, sexless version of him? Or is just someone who happens to be really similar to a fictional character? I know this can work-people loved Crow Sting, and Waylon Mercy's Max Cady knockoff was intriguing-but Rose is just fucking lame. Of course, Michael Cole's "laughter" doesn't help, but unless Rose was sleazy and debauched, I don't think anyone will give a shit.
ReplyDeleteToo bad they just fired 2/3MB.
ReplyDeleteThat we can definitely agree on
ReplyDeleteWell, it sounds like Vince has been told it's a dumb gimmick and he agrees.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I admit I had higher hopes than this for Rose's gimmick. The vignettes were fun and the entrance is great in NXT. It just doesn't translate to the bigger arena, unless he were to bring a proportionate number of partiers down the ramp with him: 10-12 people looks like a huge party in the tiny NXT arena, but it just looks like a handful of idiots doing idiot stuff on Raw.
The ooohs the crowd gives Nakano when she puts Blayze in that lifiting sharpshooter (or whatever it's called) is amazing.
ReplyDeleteIf you're framing the discussion about the failures of NXT characters by including the Wyatts in that side of the ledger, I can't help you. Like most I agree the Cena feud has gone on long enough, but after nearly a year to declare the Wyatt Family gimmick as anything but a categorical success is just not correct.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the Divas division is that for the longest time, the spotlight has been on the more "diva" aspect of their personalities instead of actually wrestling. You get used to seeing people wearing evening gowns and fighting in pools filled with oil and it's hard to take it seriously when you get divas that are solid competent wrestlers. They don't have the patience now to get over the wrestlers so we'll keep getting the random Paige and Charlotte to put on good matches, but get a steady stream of the Bellas and Eva Marie who are there b/c they are attractive and/or attached to one of the big stars.
ReplyDeleteI think the Roman Reigns-Dean Ambrose beatdown of 3MB was supposed to be the write off for the gimmick.
ReplyDeleteAt least they could now consider repackaging Heath Slater as "Clem Layfield."
It's a good point. It's a long way to go from puppies to being respected. There's probably a way to do both - have the "diva" aspect, which has a role in wrestling and have the actual wrestlers - but I doubt they have the energy to think of ways to do both so it's lumped together
ReplyDeleteI like Adam Rose's finish. I feel like he'd be good getting the hot tag in a mid card tag team.
ReplyDeleteThe Wyatt-Kane feud sucked (more like fizzled) but at least having the Wyatt's attacking Kane upon their arrival gave them enough credibility that would lead to a John Cena feud about a year later.
ReplyDeleteNo, but I wouldn't compare going to a WWE show to going to a singular sporting event either.
ReplyDeleteI'll bet cash money that the only reason Xavier Woods got called up is because he's working on his PhD, so the announcers can brag about his education.
ReplyDeleteI think I have discovered the solution to Paige's inability to get over: Give her Victoria's outfits circa 2003. Granted, that means no more Scooby Doo crossovers, but maybe they can get other old sponsors back, like N64's Glover.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that’s basically what I’m wondering. I’ve never heard any basketball fan get excited for a game, but also be disappointed that it's not a double header with some WNBA action.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I would have liked to see Rose's gimmick under the TV-14 rating of the Attitude Era. So he could be hanging out backstage getting drunk, and bragging about the girls he's banging.
ReplyDeleteBut instead of being with the ladies and getting all sorts of fucked up on the bus.........they play hungry hungry hippos.
Exactly, and I'd agree fizzled is the right word. The buildup was something different and I enjoyed it. It was just a lame match.
ReplyDeleteEven if big chunks of the Cena feud have been insufferable (I say "big chunks" because there have been a handful of awesome segments, a MOTYC at Payback and a number of good Raw matches out of it) it hasn't kept Bray from getting more and more over, which is all that really matters.
Again, though, that's a false analogy. If you go to a basketball game, you're going just for that single, 2-3 hour-long basketball game. That's not what going to a wrestling show is.
ReplyDeleteIf I was going to some sort of basketball festival, though, with a bunch of 10-25 minute games- some one-on-one, some three-on-three, whatever- and there was a 5-minute women's game thrown in, I'd deal with it.
Plus, he probably doesn't mind jobbing because the money is putting him through school. Hell probably be gone before he even finishes his PhD program.
ReplyDeleteYeah, zero chance of that happening.
ReplyDeleteIt depends on the celebrity and/or the movie role. As you noted, Crow Sting and Waylon Mercy worked, as did Razor Ramon (Tony Montana in Scarface, the Honkytonk Man (Justin Beiber), Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat (Bruce Lee), and others. But if the role or celebrity is a flash-in-the-pan with no staying power, then you either have to evolve the character quickly beyond the rip-off stage before you lose the audience or risk a failure that can't always be washed away with a gimmick change.
ReplyDeleteThe point is divas wrestling sucks as much as the WNBA, and just like the WNBA no one wants to see it or gives a shit about it.
ReplyDeleteWAITAMINUTE WAITAMINUTE WAITAMINUTE
ReplyDeleteOr, you know, it being over 10 years old, he might not remember everything with crystal clarity. The same things happens all the time in shoot videos where guys give their perspective on what happened as opposed to the reality.
ReplyDeleteAnd I thought I was a nerd when I noticed that stuff in Jericho's book wasn't perfectly chronological.
ReplyDelete"The guy got his biggest singles push in WCW and yet doesn't even remember his time there."
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if you knew this, but wrestlers get hit on the head a lot.
Two reasons.
ReplyDelete1. I don't care for Japanese wrestling. I've seen some of their shows and it just doesn't hook me. Yeah there's some good stuff there, but I've always been more into the over the top characters and drama rather than action. It's from growing up a Hulkamaniac I guess.
2. I told Scott I'd do the WCW reviews until they were done so that's what I'm going to do.
exactly. this kind of stuff bothers me, too. they obviously f**ked up so many things up for real, there is no need for those fabricated stories (on purpose or not).
ReplyDeletealthough if the reports are to believed, the WWE has had more and more trouble with this in recent years, too.
ReplyDeleteIf Lance could be irreverent for a minute...
ReplyDeleteThe story is probably true but he probably just got the dates mixed up. Tends to happen when something happened almost 15 years ago and the guy has wrestled in thousands of matches across a ton of territories and has probably taken his fair share of shots to the head.
ReplyDeleteI just thought it odd that he described a conversation he had with someone (Booker T) before a match that took place 4 weeks before his own debut. Not only that, but he couldn't have had the conversation with Booker T since Booker made his entrance first, followed by Mike Awesome. The entire story is full of holes. Its one thing to have your dates a little out of order or maybe you say you wrestled the guy at the wrong PPV, but none of this could have happened the way he said it did.
ReplyDeleteWCW was full of major screwups, but if you are going to talk about how messed up WCW management was at least use actual facts to back up your argument. There are plenty out there...
Ok, this is like the 6th time you've basically said the same post, and all 6 times, we told you to lighten up, it's not that big of a deal.
ReplyDeleteThats pretty awesome though. Thats like going to Yankee stadium and seeing Ruth play, in wrestling terms, to me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, how well do you remember random goings on from 15 years ago? I have very vague memories of WCW and I was a wrestling fan. Fans always expect the people who participate in things (sports, wrestling, other forms of entertainment) to be as invested as we are when they're typically not.
ReplyDeleteNo, because this one wasn't in a STEEL CAGE.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I have a freakish memory for stuff like that. (And a terrible memory for when my girlfriend says, "Hey, I'm leaving, can you get the comforter out of the drier in 45 minutes and start the oven at 7:00?") But you're totally right. Even Jericho- who kept a detailed log of every match of his career- gets some stuff chronologically wrong in his second book. You're on that stage that often, and we expect that you should be able to get every detail right when you were in the thick of it rather than obsessively watching like the rest of us? It's not realistic.
ReplyDeleteThere were a lot of stories in the book that they exaggerated or took out of context.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that a two match show? I mean yeah, Jericho/HHH is a clear career high point for both, and Benoit/Rock is astonishingly good, but apart from that there's nothing there from where I'm sitting.
ReplyDelete