Scott,
Before Iraq invade Kuwait in 1990 and the whole Sgt. Slaughter turncoat angle was conceived, what was the plan for Wrestlemania 7? Was Warrior-Hogan II the long plan or did they have something else cooking? Thanks.
Yup, Warrior-Hogan was indeed conceived as the general plan from the moment Warrior won the title, but Warrior just didn't draw and they decided to go with the cultural zeitgeist of the Iraq invasion instead. And really, a few years earlier and Slaughter as the American turncoat might have worked as a foil for Hogan, but I think everyone knew he was too far past his prime and just didn't buy it.
Imagine Warrior vs. Hogan in front of 100,000 fans!
ReplyDeleteWasn't the original plan going to be Warrior beating Hogan again? I'm pretty sure they wanted to give Hogan the Bruno treatment following WM VI.
ReplyDeleteI so wanted Hogan vs Warrior II at that show, and for Hogan to win. But nope...had to wait until Halloween Havoc 1998, and by then the match sucked.
ReplyDeleteWarrior may not have been a draw himself at house shows, but I would think Hogan/Warrior II would draw better than Hogan/Ol' Spit Mouth.
ReplyDeleteThat match could have easily been a train wreck but its actually really awesome.
ReplyDeleteactually, its an underrated match if you can get past the fact that everyone knew Hogan was going over. Too bad, too, because its something of a dream match to fans who remembered how big both Slaughter was as a babyface.
ReplyDeleteI was so confused by the returning Slaughter. I knew him through his GI Joe action figure, which was really slender, had huge muscles, and never took off its hat. Slaughter's action figure against Hulk Hogan would have been a surefire Wrestlemania main event.
ReplyDeleteWarrior/Savage should have been the main event and for the title. Hogan/Slaugter should have been co with a stip like loser never wrestles in America again or something.
ReplyDeleteImagine 100,000 fans!
ReplyDeleteYeah. Sure it could be argued Hogan/Warrior II would have been a bigger draw than what we got but no way in hell would it fill a 100,000 seat stadium.
ReplyDeleteKind of like the girl with the Facebook selfie at just the right angle, and then when you meet her, she weighs just under a metric ton?
ReplyDeleteDisappointing.
Christ, talk about an understatement. At the time, I didn't buy Slaughter as a threat to anyone. He worked his ass off on the mic to put the whole thing over, but c'mon now...his fucking combover was flopping around during matches, and he wasn't physically imposing on any level.
ReplyDeleteWell, his chin was.
And VKM wanted to sell out the LA Coliseum with that? VKM, please. Seems kind of odd that Vince is/was so into the big bodybuilder type, yet he figured that playing on a fucking war with an old man playing a character that was tired years before would take all the money off the table.
Dafuq. Even as a mark back then, I cared not for the main event.
Yeah, even back then, I would have been fine with Hogan never getting another run with the belt.
ReplyDeleteHe could have arrived at the arena on his Triple T Tank backed by the Slaughter's Marauders
ReplyDeleteIn the late '90 Observers, Dave seems to think a Piper heel turn and WM main event was another thing on the table.
ReplyDeleteWell, you know that wasn't ever happening with the orange goblin hanging backstage.
ReplyDeleteWhat would it have taken to fill the LA Coliseum? Hogan vs Flair? Is there a match that could have drawn it?
ReplyDeleteThey could have been the original Shield.
ReplyDeleteIf you believe Meltzer from 1990 that was the plan, but it would've taken Hogan to not be so into holding the belt.
ReplyDeleteHa. Slaughter sits down to his first meeting with Vince. Vince shakes his hand, a smile frozen upon his face. Five minutes in Vince gets a phone call. "Oh no, Nana's sick?! I'll be there right away." Hangs up. "Hey I'm sorry Sarge, something really unexpected has come up. But hey, I'll totally call you and we'll reschedule."
ReplyDeleteThat's asking for a lot of nuance and Vince is the more beat-you-over-the-head type.
ReplyDeleteIf I was 1988-1989, I say Flair vs. Hogan could've, but not in 1991. 1991 had no two guys that could sell it out .
ReplyDeleteIt looked like your flabby, balding dad was fighting Hulk Hogan and the war, such that it was, was already over. Silliness.
ReplyDeleteSlaughter kind of scared me as a kid. The guy didn't need the best physique but when he was beating the crap out of Hogan, it made him legit.
ReplyDeleteOh the flashbacks to reading encyclopedia dramatica...
ReplyDeleteReally? I was 6, and a fat old dude didn't make me worry about my hero the Hulkster at all, lol.
ReplyDeleteThere were no two wrestlers on earth in 1991 that could have put on a main event that would have filled a 100,000 seat arena. Remember, Hogan/Andre at the peak of the 80s wrestling boom only did a little more than 3/4s of that number.
ReplyDeleteThat is, unless Vince found a way to convince "required attendance by all citizens" like North Korea did at the NJPW/WCW shows...
That's because they didn't run a 100k place for 3.
ReplyDeleteThat's a fair point. I mean, people were LITERALLY hanging from the rafters at Mania 3.
ReplyDeleteShould have booked Hogan vs Saddam "The Southside Slugger" Hussein at Wrestlemania VII for the WWF Title and AMERICA'S FREEDOM! IT'SSSSSSSSSSSS WRESTLEMANIA!
ReplyDeleteThere's no denying the awesome that is the Wrestlemania 7 intro.
ReplyDeleteThe proper story could do it with any two of these guys ---- Flair, Savage, Hogan, and Warrior.
ReplyDeleteOh it's awesome. I miss Vince's intros.
ReplyDeleteYou could cut the electricity with a knife.
ReplyDeleteI was there. I had rafter 2BC14. Still have the ticket. It was like watching a yellow pong vs. a black pong.
ReplyDeleteHard to go pee, so I just went. Poor family below me.
I don't think Flair could fill it. He's the greatest ever...but NWA wasn't as mainstream and WWF fans weren't workrate experts. You go from the epic Warrior vs. Hogan the year before to little Ric Flair vs. the gladiator Hulk Hogan? Nope. Even on the house show circuit Flair vs. Hogan didn't draw.
ReplyDeleteYou can't fill a 100,000 arena with smarks.
In my G.I. Joe action figure wrestling federation, those guys are jobbers to the unbeatable tag team of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Warrior putting the title up against Savage's career, with Hogan vs. Slaughter as a grudge match works just as well. Slaughter as champ never needed to happen.
ReplyDeleteCould have led to Hogan challenging Warrior for the title (and his re-match) at SummerSlam '91
ReplyDeleteEven as an 8 year old mark, I didn't buy Slaughter as a threat and saw him as too cartoonish. They didn't need to move the title in order for Hogan-Slaughter to be a big Mania match. Keep the belt on Warrior for the Savage match, then build to Warrior-Hogan II at SummerSlam, after they have vanquished the big heels at Mania
ReplyDeleteActually, now that I'm thinking about it that might not be true. The Silverdome held 80,000 for football, which means it would hold even more for pro wrestling (perhaps even the fabled kayfabe 93,000). I can't imagine that Vince only sold/gave away 78,000 tickets if he could fit a few thousand more. If Vince could have legit fit 82,000 in that building, he would've sold or given away 5,000 more tickets.
ReplyDelete78,000 might have been the most pro wrestling was going to do in that era. Which DEFINITELY means Mania 7 didn't have a hope or a prayer of hitting 100,000.
Remember when Slaughter burned that American flag on that edition of Superstars? That actually made him somewhat believable for me because in my mind, I thought if this guy has the balls to do that on national tv given the environment, what could he REALLY do? (I love those times, I wish I could go back to it sometimes lol), and I was MUCH more of a Warrior fan than a Hogan fan, so it actually made me want to see Hulk win.
ReplyDeleteHogan-Warrior I might have sold over 100,000, but that requires Zeus-Hogan at WrestleMania VI.
ReplyDeleteI thought he just burned a Hulkamania t-shirt and not the American flag.
ReplyDeleteit might have been a Hulkamania t-shirt, my memory is a little fuzzy, but that not withstanding, that stunt he pulled made it believable for me.
ReplyDeleteWell, they legit sold 80,000+ at Wembley for Summerslam 92, so Bret-Bulldog might hav been the answer.
ReplyDeleteI've never seen Slaughter as a threat.
ReplyDeleteThe midget match must have been really tough.
ReplyDelete:reads letter:
ReplyDeleteFunny, I was just thinking about how WWE used real life politics in past. First this, then the Hassan beatdown of the Undertaker.
I didn't even know there was one until after I got home and they mentioned it on one of the shows.
ReplyDeleteAt 9-10 years old, Slaughter kinda scared the crap out of me. I'm unashamed to admit this. The shoot of Slaughter burning Hulk's shirt is stuck in my subconscious.
ReplyDeleteThis Wrestlemania was just asking for trouble.
ReplyDeleteWe weren't old enough to watch at the time.
ReplyDeleteYeah, imagine all those Los Angeles fans coming out to support Hometown Hero Davey Boy Smith!
ReplyDeleteYou were not born when that match took place.
ReplyDeleteBut he beat Warrior... he needed a ton of help to do it... but he beat Warrior... and who's to say he wouldn't do it again!?
ReplyDeleteNow you people can't even stomach a vaugue airplane reference--they'd never get a way wuth the shit they used to use to get heat
ReplyDeleteI see what you're saying, but it's kind of different. I don't think anyone had a problem with them showing Putin on the Tron or anything like that, but basically bringing up the plane incident less than a week after it happened was a little distasteful IMO. I still have no problem with the Russia stuff, but they didn't have to mention it to get the point across.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Rusev isn't being used to try and sell a Wrestlemania.
I believe you're correct. I think I heard somewhere that they wanted Sarge to burn the flag and he refused to do so.
ReplyDeleteO well. Wcw gave us the epic rematch
ReplyDeleteIm glad they brought it up.Anytime wwe does anything controversial I get excited. That's sad but it is what it is. They didn't make jokes about the ppl who died. They just brought it up. I don't see how anyone could be offended. Did they ppl forget it happened then the bastards at wwe reminded them?
ReplyDeleteWhat Lana did no way compares to the awfulness of the Hassan debacle though.
ReplyDeleteI just started watching around the time and Slaughter seemed legit to me. He was loud and scary as a kid.
ReplyDeleteI've talked on the site before about how dumb this was and how much money was thrown away by Vince going back to outdated thinking...however I'll leave this idea here...What if Warrior turned Iraqi turncoat? I know I know he wouldn't bla bla bla but IF he had agreed to it? Terrible Idea? !00,000 seat filler? What say you?
ReplyDeleteMind......blown.....utterly non-sensical, but probably would get nuclear levels of heat.
ReplyDeleteThe way they put Putin's face up is just stupidly ham-handed, and probably half the people in the arena don't know who he is. Instead of being a Russian sympathizer, he should believe in communism/falling into place, denounce democracy, etc....I think that's WAY more effective than just throwing up a picture of Vladimir Putin every week....but what do I know?
ReplyDeleteI didn't buy anyone as a threat, because well, it was Hulk Hogan (Warrior being the absolute only exception). Even then, I was slowly starting to see the pattern of Hogan winning the big one at Wrestlemania.
ReplyDeleteThis is the part where I do give the WWE a slight bit of credit is that anything controversial will automatically get blown up on social media, and since they are a publicly held company, it makes things tough on them....of course they generally do a poor job of writing ANYTHING controversial so that usually cancels it out, but I just want them to do something GOOD controversial, and see where it goes.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of, was there ever an actual reason why the Hogan/Warrior rematch didn't happen in the WWF? I mean, I sure as hell would have wanted to see it again, even if it was just to see if Warrior could do it again, or if it was just a fluke. talking about leaving money on the table /Caliber
ReplyDeleteSo now that's got me thinking... who SHOULD have been the Iraqi turncoat? If Rotunda wasn't in IRS mode, he'd have been a decent choice. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteMaybe. His promos sounded like Arabic anyway.
ReplyDeleteHis later work showed he was completely capable of unpopular political ranting, too.
ReplyDeleteWait... you mean queerin' don't make the world work? Shocked.
ReplyDeleteHogan.
ReplyDeleteYeah that was my first thought too. But he was still way too popular for a heel turn then.
ReplyDeleteAnd besides, Iraqi Villain vs Hero from Parts Unknown doesn't quite have the same ring.
ReplyDeleteVince got the Slaughter idea stuck in his head. I bet money that Hogan/Warrior would have happened if not for the war.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Sarge has said before the only time he said no to Vince was about burning the flag.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Backlund? He was only a couple years from coming back anyway, and clearly still had the goods.
ReplyDeleteI've said this before, but I can't understand how Vince saw the same Slaughter I watched lumbering around AWA rings in the late 1980s and said "there's my 100,000 seat Wrestlemania main eventer!". Even with the built-in military gimmick. Was Corporal Kirschner not available?
ReplyDelete(I'm halfway kidding, but he might actually have been a better choice.
I would have liked it for sure. I mean yes, Savage/Warrior was 5 stars, and Slaughter actually bumped like a pinball during the main event, but to me, both matches were 100% foregone conclusions. In my mind, there was 0% chance that Savage would beat Warrior, after the past 2 years needing tons of help from Sherri to beat midcarders. He just didn't seem at Warrior's level anymore.
ReplyDeleteSo while WM3 topped out at 93,000 in attendance [not all of them paid] and WM7 came nowhere near 100 grand, I have to ask: would WM today reach the six-figure mark? It's well known Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, Texas could pull that number. Would it require a blockbuster main event or would it being WrestleMania and a chance to be a part of the LARGEST CROWD IN THE HISTORY OF OUR (north american) SPORT be enough?
ReplyDeleteWrestleMania could top 100,000 easy, just because it's WrestleMania.
ReplyDeleteI think both. You couldn't put Orton vs Cena or something else we've already seen done and expect to fill that building. The Wrestlemania name sells, but to top 100k, you'd need a big match on top.
ReplyDeleteThe name certainly sells, I went to WM 18, and me and my friends barely got tickets (nearly sold out), about 1 month before Hogan/Hall/Nash even returned to the company. So it was 100% the Wrestlemania name.
ReplyDeleteAh I see Grantland did the piece. I assume then at some point in his illustrious life Anoki sucked up to boston sports teams.
ReplyDeleteTo get an additional 30k people, you'd need something big going on, I think. Plus, 2002 WWE isn't the same as now as far as fan interest and casual interest.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I got my tickets to Wrestlemania 2000 before any matches were set.
ReplyDeleteAustin could draw 100k right now.
ReplyDeleteAnd we had already seen Warrior beat Hogan the year before. All-American Ultimate Warrior vs. Iraqi turncoat Hulk Hogan would not do
ReplyDeleteHe was so over when he came back, that the people cheered Razor Ramon at Wrestlemania IX...;-) IMO Backlund sucked all the time from his comeback in 93 to 95.
ReplyDeleteSeems like it was the next logical progression for SummerSlam 1991, rather than that multi-man match with Hogan/Warrior beating heels we had already seen them beat single-handedly. I get that SummerSlam was at MSG and you could do a bigger crowd elsewhere with Hogan-Warrior II, but that's the kind of high-profile match suitable for the Garden
ReplyDeleteYep, I loved how they were hyping that it was a 2 on 3 handicap match... As if Warrior and Hogan were underdogs... (also doesn't help when 1 of the 3 opponents is a manager in his 50's)
ReplyDeleteNot in America, no, but I think compared to even 2002, WWE is leaps and bounds more of a "global brand" than it was. You know how they always make a big deal out of people coming from like 50 different countries to Mania? That could be a difference-maker.
ReplyDeleteWell, it's not like anyone was beating down the doors to see Sarge before his turn either.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I just watched the alley fight between him and Patterson. NICE!
That's true. I'd love to see it.
ReplyDeleteI will say one thing - this year at WM (before and after, esp in the Quarter) I heard at LEAST 6 different identifiable accents. And I don't have a great ear for that sort of thing.
ReplyDeleteIt could have the single most racist thing EVER done in wrestling. Can you just imagine Warrior talking in fake Arabic and going rated R with his promos? OMG.
ReplyDeleteHere's a question, given the thin main event scene by WM VII does a show headlined by Hogan-Warrior II sell? One would have to sit through a whole lot of squash matches...
ReplyDeleteso you are saying it would work right?
ReplyDeleteReplace Slaughter with an Iraq sympathizer Jim Duggan. That table will have had all the money removed plus some.
ReplyDeleteThey weren't afraid to put some dogs on that card (Tornado-Bravo).
ReplyDeleteWell, Savage was Heel... they could have made Warrior vs Savage at the Rumble and then Hogan vs Savage (for the title) and Warrior vs Slaughter with a red-blue-white Warrior facepaint and outfit. :)
ReplyDeleteI was just a dumb 3rd grader at the time but even then I had a minor bout of smark rage when slaughter beat the ultimate warrior for the belt at Royal Rumble. I had my hopes warrior would beat savage at WM7.
ReplyDeleteI'm really curious to see what U.S. wrestlers will end up on those North Korea cards at the end of August. We can rule out WWE guys, I guess.
ReplyDeleteIt was so bad, Hassan was wiped from the face oft he earth.
ReplyDeleteYou got that right, I'll give you that.
ReplyDeleteI just watched that stuff recently...Hogan, Okerlund, and everyone made every feasible effort to covnince us that burning the shirt was EXACTLY THE SAME as burning the flag. That was clearly the symbolism they were going for, or originally intended.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe the "78,000" number, and it's one major point of fact where I disagree with Meltzer. As you imply, it simply doesn't pass the eye test, and Dave's arguments are wholly unconvincing. Stadiums don't work capacities--attendance, yes, not capacity. And the "internal records" is either bullshit or something they worked *downward*, for tax or talent payoff reasons. I don't know if 93,173 is the actual attendance, but I'm betting it was closer to the real number than 78,000.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think WM 15 or 16 could have done huge stadium business at the time? Ratings were through the roof and wrestling was getting serious mainstream attention.
ReplyDeleteI've been there, man...
ReplyDeleteI think 15 & 16 could've, 16 moreso than 15.
ReplyDeleteI think that show sells, but not 100k. I like WM 7 a lot and think it's one of the more underrated shows.
ReplyDeleteAustin-Punk = 100k and license to print money.
ReplyDeleteIt would smash the buyrate record.
ReplyDeleteJust wait until John Cena decides to broaden his horizons and bring some HUSTLE, LOYALTY, and RESPECT to the international community.....
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely 99 and 2000 easily.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that the storyline that was already ridiculous in March was incredibly so in August, 6-7 months after the conflict was over. Vince just loved that basic concept, I guess.
ReplyDeleteIL be hated for this but I don't think punk is the guy most doomers think he is and could not draw 100,000 as a main event. He's a core fan wrestler, not a larger than life celebrity wrestler like hulk, austin or rock.
ReplyDeleteMet life dude. Give the jet fans some cred
ReplyDeleteWELCOME TO THE BOD!
ReplyDeleteUmm....no
ReplyDeleteI can see that.
ReplyDeleteI have never understood the love for Hogan-Slaughter. I watched live as a 10 year old and that match was boring and would not end. It pretty much killed my unwavering love of Hulkamania.
ReplyDeleteI definitely have a soft spot for every WrestleMania from about V through VIII I can sit through all the filler. Even midcard felt like a big deal. But if we go with Hogan-Warrior II, what does everyone do to account for the gap created by not having Warrior-Macho Man?
ReplyDeleteI don't know, 15 came at a time when WWE was really starting to win the ratings war, and it was the culmination of SCSA's chase for the belt after the shenanigans the Fall prior.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, on the other hand, that undercard has fucking nothing going for it on paper, and Rock wasn't viewed as a credible challenger to Austin at that point, so maybe not.
I've always figured that the WM venues were booked well in advance and that's why WM2000 was in an arena. When booking WM15, WCW was still putting up a fight. But by time it was time to book WM2000, the WWF was really the only show in the town.
ReplyDeleteMaybe right on the not larger than life point, but many fans have mad love for him. He is, or was, only second only to Cena in terms of merch and mainstream recognition. It's an anecdotal point, but I've seen more people wearing CM Punk shirts in my city than any other wrestler shirt. In fact, I barely see WWE merch on the street these days.
ReplyDeleteBoth could have if they sold out stadiums in ice cold years.
ReplyDelete/guitar riff WORLD WRESTLING FEDERATION CHAMPION SGT SLAUGHTER!
ReplyDeleteThe fireball after the match is what scared me.
ReplyDeleteThey weren't filling anything that big in 1991. Warrior/Hogan II was the only thing coming close and I doubt it'd surpassed even WM VI.
ReplyDeleteBusiness dropped off by drastic amounts as you progress from 1990 through 1992. They had to paper the hell out of the Hoosier Dome just to get it 8,000 fans away from capacity.
Cowboy stadium run Brock/Bryan for the title, Punk/Austin and Taker/Sting (as two guys who were the cornerstones of their respective companies, not cause they're both dark characters) as your triple main event.
ReplyDeleteWrestleMania 15 would have done 50-60,000, but maybe not 75,000+. I feel like WM 16 could have done 100,000 if they wanted to go for that much.
ReplyDeleteIt's more like JetLife Stadium. Giants home games are always so quiet it sounds like a morgue. At least Jets fans are alive and under 80.
ReplyDeleteThat's because most Jets fans are drunken asshats.
ReplyDeleteEasy there. You make it sound like we're Boston sports fans.
ReplyDeleteMassholes are the fucking worst. And as much as I love Toronto otherwise, Maple Leafs fans are right up there.
ReplyDeleteYour comment about the Giants also applies to Sabres fans. It's like watching Japanese wrestling, the crowd is just DEAD.
Scott, what do you men no one was buying Slaughter as a foil for Hogan? Didn't you hear Gorilla Monsoon? Right in the middle of the pay-per-view, with no way of knowing, Gorilla said it was the largest audience ever in he history of pay-per-view! Gorilla wouldn't LIE, would he?
ReplyDeleteIf Piper could work a wild brawl, maybe a dream match with Savage ?
ReplyDeleteAgreed. He didnt boost business in any discernible way. Sure, shitty booking, Cena on top, HHH, Nash, etc, but despite the love for Punk it didnt translate to any big boost
ReplyDeleteThat's odd because I always thought that Buffalo was a hockey hotbed (or about as much as an American city can be considered as such).
ReplyDeleteWell, it kind of is, but the Sabres suck and are run by morons.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand how Warrior didn't draw. He was mega over.
ReplyDeleteDid Slaughter really look that much worse than Taker did this year?
ReplyDelete